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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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Why wouldn't they?
Because their corporate culture has changed?
Do you really think that the "corporate culture" could really drive all of the people at BD responsible for making these products safe and reliable to do nothing about a serious problem? Are you suggesting that engineers would violate their ethical code of conduct and their own conscience just to help the company make an extra dime? They all climb on this stuff too, they have just as much at stake as you.
Another quick comment: How many of you are out there doing dynos on ice while soloing? If my crampon broke in half while I was in the middle of a pitch I would still have my other foot and two bomber ax placements in the ice. It might end my day of climbing, and freak me out a bit, but I'm not going to get killed because of it. My doubles came untied once while i was climbing and my foot was skating around, I couldn't front point! OMG boot laces suck, I could have DIED. Everyone boycott boot makers!!
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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you must not make much progress if you always have both feet in the ice.
Touche. I still have 2 bomber axes though...
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Do you really think that the "corporate culture" could really drive all of the people at BD responsible for making these products safe and reliable to do nothing about a serious problem? Are you suggesting that engineers would violate their ethical code of conduct and their own conscience just to help the company make an extra dime?
Even my three year old could answer that.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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If my crampon broke in half while I was in the middle of a pitch I would still have my other foot and two bomber ax placements in the ice. It might end my day of climbing, and freak me out a bit, but I'm not going to get killed because of it.
Hmmm,..
(and you are from SLC)
You got a dog in this fight perhaps?????
Do much soloing??
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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Hmmm,..
(and you are from SLC)
You got a dog in this fight perhaps?????
Do much soloing??
I solo enough to know that my crampon won't be what kills me.
It's pretty funny that the majority of you guys hating on BD have not posted any sort of evidence to support your issues. Most of the people that have posted about having gear break or whatever have said pretty positive things about their service.
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Gene
climber
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If my crampon broke in half while I was in the middle of a pitch I would still have my other foot and two bomber ax placements in the ice. It might end my day of climbing, and freak me out a bit, but I'm not going to get killed because of it.
Watch this and get back to me, K?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdHlyjM_8_E
I don't know enough about the SS Sabertooth to have an opinion worth listening to. However, you minimize the consequences of a gear failure.
g
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Gene
climber
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Most of us are not Steck.
That's why we need to have absolutely no doubts about the quality of our gear. You've made my point. Thanks!
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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Most of us are not Steck.
That's why we need to have absolutely no doubts about the quality of our gear. You've made my point. Thanks!
How does that prove your point? Are you soloing like he does flailing around wildly out of control? (obviously he is in control but it sure doesn't look like it) You have more margin for error (and possible failure) than someone who is pushing the absolute limits.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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[quote]http://vimeo.com/20549603[/quote]
There is a good chance of falling if you don't know what you are doing like that guy. Remember how bad he got torn apart on the threads last year?
The whole point of using a rope and pro is to protect yourself in case of a fall. If your foot or tool pops, you let go of your tool, your crampons breaks, you get hit with ice, etc. You had the rope to protect yourself, and if you did a good job (unlike that guy) you don't fall that far and you minimize your injury.
If you are out soloing you are taking a known chance that one of those things could happen to you at any moment and it could kill you. If you are willing to accept that risk then good, if not, don't solo. If you are unwilling to accept any of those risks while you are roped up, then don't climb. Like I said; when I solo, I make sure my placements are bomber, that's part of how I mitigate some of that risk.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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I make sure my placements are bomber
Yeah, I luv me some bomber verglace placements! I love to hang around on them and have a smoke.
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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"Our crampons rock!"--Peter Metcalf
Sounds like Oakm thinks that its perfectly reasonable to have a relatively new crampon fail under his foot.
That's fine.
I don't.
I don't think that BD's crampons 'rock'. I think they are a lawsuit waiting to happen. I think that BD refuses to make any sort of rational explanation as to why there are 12+ pairs that have broken and had photographic evidence to show their failure.
Why is it OK to have the front point of crampons break off within the first year of ownership?
Why should I have to count on everything else to save me?
Why won't BD break radio silence on this?
As a user I would like to hear a logical response that holds water. As a shareholder I would like BD to recall all stainless crampons and to go back to Chro-Mo.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Let me be as succinct as possible in my answer and with all due respect.
"How many of you are out there doing dynos on ice while soloing? If my crampon broke in half while I was in the middle of a pitch I would still have my other foot and two bomber ax placements in the ice."
You have no fooking clue what you are talking about.
Now if you think you do, I would be happy to have you come follow me soloing ice. I will even loan you a pair of Sabers for the occasion.
It was good a few days ago so if we hurry we can start here:
And yes the invite is always open and I am "dead" serious and tired of the horsesh#t.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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I don't know any trad ice climbers that think a fall on ice is trivial.
A busted leg in the Canadian Rockies in winter would be very serious, possibly fatal.
I don't think a fall on ice is trivial either, I've done it.
A busted leg in the big mountains could be very serious for sure. But I'm not going to ditch my crampons because a supposed 18 pairs have cracked or broken. (I would love to know the real number) 18 pairs may sound like a lot but that number is a total tally that anyone can seem to find over 3+ years of this crampon. Any idea how many they have made in 3+ years? "Our crampon returns in North America for 2010 was .078 percent of sales" this was from BD in one of the forums last year. Do a little math, that means that they have sold over 23000 pairs of crampons. I'll take that chance all day long. That said I view climbing as a calculated risk, we all have to determine for ourselves what is an acceptable level of risk.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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You have no fooking clue what you are talking about.
Now if you think you do, I would be happy to have you come follow me soloing ice. I will even loan you a pair of Sabers for the occasion.
Dane, I don't pretend to be half the climber you are but I know enough to be comfortable with the routes I solo.
I would gladly follow you on a solo climb someday, maybe I could learn something, but I have my own pair to climb on so I won't need to borrow any.
It was good a few days ago so if we hurry we can start here:
Wow, straight up bullying. That does look like a rope in there though...
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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A busted leg in the big mountains could be very serious for sure. But I'm not going to ditch my crampons because a supposed 18 pairs have cracked or broken. (I would love to know the real number) 18 pairs may sound like a lot but that number is a total tally that anyone can seem to find over 3+ years of this crampon.
DUDE! When there are multiple reports of crampon failure- same model/same brand, it is a great reason to stay away from that. Especially for ice climbing, if one is planning to do ANY kind of leading or soloing.
In REI they discard ALL returned climbing gear, even if it was used once. You know why? Because in climbing- your life is on the line. Personally, I love to climb. And I do not plan to injure myself and be set back in training, or die (when climbing stops). And to avoid that, I will use crampons from other brands. From brands that would address the issue, if numerous reports pop up.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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I don't think that BD's crampons 'rock'. I think they are a lawsuit waiting to happen. I think that BD refuses to make any sort of rational explanation as to why there are 12+ pairs that have broken and had photographic evidence to show their failure.
Why is it OK to have the front point of crampons break off within the first year of ownership?
Why no cry out about Petzl Lynx crampon front points breaking off in the first days of climbing on them? There is plenty of photographic evidence of that happening too.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Black Diamond warrenty? Wonder if those guys know anything about stainless crampons?
http://vimeo.com/10077479
Probably not...ha ha...
Cheers!
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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I don't pretend to be half the climber you are but I know enough to be comfortable with the routes I solo.
On the scale of "real" climbers I aint very far up the list. Guys like Coz are.
But you might want to ask youslf why Coz and I think this issue is important enough to take the heat personally for bringing it up? It aint a BD witch hunt on part. It is about staying safe in the mtns.
I can tell you exactly what it is like to be soloing WI2 and have a crampon fail in the manner the BD stainless horizontals have already on numberious occasions. Bottom line? I would most certainly be dead if it weren't through a simple stroke of luck. So it really doesn't matter what level you climb at or solo at. Betting on a piece of gear by the number sold as opposed to have failed is a fool's game at best.
BD and REI think it is OK. After all the numbers are in their favor. When I strap on a pair of crampons I don't think it is OK to use what appears at this point to be on unreliabable gear. Does anyone? Really?
The first pairs of stainless to pop up broken were just over a year ago. With NO logical explanation from BD. None. Ever. A second "wave" (3 pair) showed up a month or so ago.
BD and the retailer who sells them will be unhappy if and when some one gets hurt from a stainless crampon failure. Pray it aint you soloing at what ever grade you feel comfortable. BD will be unhappy...you'll be lucky to live if my experience is any example.
Wow, straight up bullying. That does look like a rope in there though...
Damn right there is a rope in there. But I wasn't intending to bully you. My apologies if you thought so. Call it a serious reality check. Cuz imo it is a damn serious topic. It is not easy for me or casual. But if you want to tell me soloing in a set of Sabers is OK...I'd spend a week in Canada just to see you prove your point. Happy to just do a week of soloing grade 3 ice with ya.
But to be honest...I wouldn't do it if you were going to use BD stainless horizontals. If something happened to you because a crampon failed I would feel responsible. And I believe the chances are good enough to suggest you not, even to prove our point. I'd rather have a definative answer on why first, from BD, and then how it was fixed. Then maybe I'd be happy to solo in the same 'pons as you.
BD employees and atheletes? I know, have climbed with a few and met many of them. One of the things that I hear over and over is "how they care", and how much gear they break to make sure the products are reliable.
I don't doubt BD employees care. But breaking or using their own gear (which they get cheap) is not the end all to quality control. I'm not paranoid..and I don't give a sheet what BD thinks. But if I won't climb on Sabers because I think they are unreliable ...BD has a freakin problem. And it aint me.
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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I'm not worried about Petzl and the Lynx.
Petzl has a proven track record of recalling gear that they feel needs to be. Personally I didn't think the Nomic needed such a fast recall.
If they are having some breakage I am sure that it will be addressed in an open, honest and timely manner.
Which is what I would like to see form BD.
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