Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 12:53am PT
|
I think assuming that students will be converted to accepting evolution purely on the basis of scientific fact is actually the romantic position.
Concerning what Base104 had to say about core drills, is another approach in fact. One piece of evidence my students find quite convincing is stratigraphy and the order it represents. I always ask them if Noah's flood had been a world wide phenomenon, what would the fossil record look like as opposed to how it actually appears. When they realize the fossils are not a jumbled mess all in one strata, they find the actual fossil record to be even more convincing.
And yes, it's an interesting phenomenon that used to drive my father crazy when he worked as a seismologist in the oil fields of Texas, that everyone wants to find oil on their land and then half of them want to argue with the geologist as to how it got there. My first introduction to evolution was through the oil business when I was 4-5 years old. I used to accompany my father sometimes when he went out with his doodlebug crew on hot shots.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 01:08am PT
|
I think assuming that students will be converted to accepting evolution purely on the basis of scientific fact is actually the romantic position.
I didn't say that at all, and I'm not for converting anyone into accepting anything...
why would you think such a thing?
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 01:12am PT
|
Sorry Ed, what were you referring to then with the romantic comment?
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 01:16am PT
|
Fructose, I'm referring to the students' perceptions. Of course they come into the classroom
having heard about the confrontation between science and religion.
I certainly didn't invent that.
My style is to show them that it's an unnecessary and fruitless battle and then get
on to the interesting subject matter of the course as quickly as possible.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 01:21am PT
|
Right fructose. I'm well aware that I don't teach elites.
I'm still enough of a '60's person however, to believe that inquisitive students
from the non elite elements of our society deserve a good and relevent
education too.
In that sense, I guess I might increasingly seen in this society with its
widening class and education gap as a romantic.
Meanwhile the opening question of this thread concerned high school teaching
which I doubt is elitist either.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 01:41am PT
|
Thanks Donald. That makes sense.
Ed and I do occasionally disagree on these threads,
so I figured it applied to me. And it's not the first time
I've been accused of being a romantic.
|
|
cowpoke
climber
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 07:48am PT
|
I am not a theologian and could quickly get out of my league here, but I think it is worth adding a bit of nuance to the comment:
evolution provides an explanation of the origin of humans by physical means only
this is obviously touchy to religions
I would argue that the topic becomes controversial to people of faith if, and only if, the scientific explanation -- by definition, based on observable physical processes -- is perceived as being incompatible with their belief systems (e.g., Christians who perceive evolutionary theory as incompatible with the Genesis story). The fact that many Christians find their beliefs and evolution incompatible, however, is a bit odd from a socio-historical standpoint on Christianity.
From the 19th century through today, highly-respected Christian theologians (and scientists who claim to be Christians) have been (are) ardent supporters of Darwin and his theory of evolution. Early on (or should I say, “In the beginning?”), James Orr and George Frederick Wright, who were contributors to the essay series on Christian fundamentals that eventually led to the term “Fundamentalist Christian” both endorsed evolution as the story of human existence; indeed, some of these theologians referred to themselves as Christian Darwinists. Today, a well-known example of a scientist who argues that evolution and his Christian beliefs are compatible is Francis Collins, the director of the National Institute of Health and the former director of the National Human Genome Research Institute.
And, to bring this discussion back to climbing, Asa Gray, the botanist who was Darwin’s colleague and friend (and the namesake for the 14er, Gray’s Peak in Colorado) considered himself a Christian and maintained close ties with the Christian Darwinists.
(by the way, much of this is more succinctly provided in comment from Gene earlier in this thread)
|
|
BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 09:42am PT
|
I should have mentioned that the odd thing is the teaching of "Intelligent Design."
It hasn't really popped its head in Oklahoma, but the Kansas Schoolboard went through a famous case ten or so years ago.
The Kansas Schoolboard is odd, in that it is a state board of elected members. The fundamenalists inserted a number of "stealth" candidates for the specific reason of teaching intelligent design in the science class, right along with evolution. It was a huge stink, and they were punted in the next election.
I had a fine pre-college science education in Oklahoma back in the dark ages.
As for evolution being real, it is so blatantaly obvious in the fossil record, as well as the old age of the earth, that my fellow geoscientists who are religious have somehow reconciled it in their minds. I haven't pried as to how they do this.
Evolution is replete in the rock record. In the sedimentary basins that produce oil and gas, you have a thick sequence of rock layers that can cover 600 million years or more. Everything matches up very well. So does various dating methods. This is all very crucial in oil and gas exploration.
Paleomag also works really well. You can follow the latitude of a rock and see where it was relative to the equator when deposited. That is how continents can be followed around as they moved in time. This is also very crucial in oil and gas exploration.
Back to teaching evolution, I would just teach it in the science class like Ed says.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 11:58am PT
|
Those three Tierra del Fuegans returning to South America after being paraded around Europe like circus animals and Darwin's misunderstanding of them, are often used in anthropology classes as examples of how even great scientists can be ethnocentric and therefore none of us is ever completely immune either.
Darwin actually wrote that they were so primitive, they had no human language but spoke in grunts and shrieks.Of course, to be human is to have language of an average of 2,000 words. In fact their grammar, like many Native American languages was at least as complex as English.
|
|
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 12:03pm PT
|
"Adventure travelers in Africa are nothing new. In the late 19th century they took the form of wealthy young men who bought their way onto a journey. They were the feckless and disobedient officers in Stanley’s Rear Column who caused the great scandal that dogged Stanley’s reputation. Take the abominations of James Jameson, the Irish whiskey heir, who stayed behind while Stanley went on searching for the reluctant Schnitzer. “Fascinated by the subject of cannibalism” and something of an amateur sketcher, Jameson bought an 11-year-old girl while bivouacked on the Congo and handed her over to a group of Africans; and while they stabbed her, dismembered her, cooked her and ate her, Jameson did drawings of the whole hideous business."
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
|
Jan, I wished you had been with me when I toured the Ushuaia Naval Museum.
It is fascinating and some of the photo captions are very 'interesting'.
I've thought of doing a 'TR' but it wouldn't be climbing related and I
don't want to get banned.
|
|
Gene
climber
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
|
During a biology class a million years ago, the prof asked if anyone could name the pioneers of the theory of evolution. I recited all the peak names I could think of in the Evolution area of the Sierra – Darwin, Mendel, Huxley, Lamarck, Haeckel, Wallace, Fiske, Spencer, etc.
The prof was impressed until I mentioned The Hermit.
g
|
|
BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
|
If you are going to toss evolution, along with the old age of the earth, you are going to have to get rid of the following:
Physics
Chemistry
Biology
Geology
Those 4, and a bunch of sub areas of each area of study.
No kidding.
Geologists and biologists deal with it constantly.
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
|
The solution to which is to move back to a state with mountains
My personal favorite!
|
|
BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
|
^^^Not a totally accurate statement, though.
The Kansas schoolboard fiasco raised such a stink that they were all voted out in the next election.
Intelligent Design is not taught in science class. The governer of Kansas had to take a lot of heat over that. She was very against it.
Right Wingers think that we ought to sh#t can the Dept. of Education.
I disagree. We should give the Dept of Education a clear mandate: to raise education standards and encourage more math and science education.
You need to be fairly good at math to be a plumber or electrician.
We also need poets and artists, but to keep the country strong economically, we need to raise the level of science education. The Chinese have been doing this for a couple of decades.
And we damn sure need to be paying teachers more.
Jan, education is the best way to free people from poverty. That I can think of anyway. I would be interested to know your opinion.
|
|
BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
|
Remember that Republican debate a while back?
The moderator asked for a show of hands on who believed in evolution. I will have to check, but there were quite a few who didn't believe in evolution.
The Republican party has been at least partially taken over by the fundamentalist Christian base.
So they risk being labeled as "anti-science."
Going back to the original post, I am very glad that I don't have to teach evolution. I would hate having to deal with irate parents.
Science is just studying the natural world. It has no real opinion on religion. You can be religious and a top notch scientist. The brightest guy on this team I am now working with is super religious. Super nice guy, too. Extremely smart, though. A very young rising star. Fun to work with.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
|
education is the best way to free people from poverty
Absolutely. I've lived in villages where people couldn't figure out if one egg costs 1.25 ruppees how much two eggs would cost. They would just hold out their hands and say, "please don't cheat me". Unfortunately most educated people there did.
Even one person in a village who was literate, could make a huge difference in the lives of the others. And when Nepal went from 94% illiteracy down to 70% , the king who claimed to be an incarnation of the Hindu god Vishnu, lost his throne amid a people's power revolution.
|
|
Gene
climber
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
|
Nice posts, BASE.
One can believe in science.
One can believe in religion.
One can believe in religion and science.
Religion versus science is stupid.
Science versus religion is stupid.
g
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 02:56pm PT
|
Evolution is perhaps our only cogent hope to understanding the ever changing and morphing nature of lifeforms. The conflicts arise when religios start making claims that "spiritual" energies collude with the material world, and when science demands that "spiritual" energies can be "proven" only through furnishing physical evidence of same.
When each discipline overreachs their proper sphere, they both become less than useful. Another problem is that fundamentalists from both camps insist that each discipline is fundamentally without limits. This is the promise and hope of "God," just sliced and diced with different tools, the underlying psychology being the same.
I have to wonder if spiritual energies are somewhat like "mind," certainly implied and even embeded in material, but no where to be "seen" other than in terms of objective mechanical components.
Evolution on the other hand seems pretty straight forward.
JL
|
|
Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
|
|
|
Feb 15, 2012 - 03:01pm PT
|
physical - non-physical
physical - non-physical
etc.
Contradiction...
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!