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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jan 20, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
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Kelly, did they have the permission and support of the Argentine climbing community to do this?
That is really what it all boils down to. If they did, then my hat is off to them and kudos!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 20, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
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What (if anything) does Argentinian law say about it? Not that we have a first-party account of what was done yet. If the fuss about Cerro Torre over the last fifty years shows anything, it's that facts are sacred.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 20, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
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Studly how important is that really?
Who speaks for the diversity of opinions within a whole community.
Consensus is the key.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 20, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
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...the largest inaccuracy is to ignore the historical and ethical context in, which Maestri was acting. Beside his undisputable free climbing skills, Maestri came from an ethical heritage in Dolomites,
As an old guy, I would love to be reminded of exactly which "ethical context" of the time included hauling gas-powered compressors up routes...
That Maestri contemplated and acquired a gas-powered compressor in the first place tells you everything you need to know about his intent for the route before ever leaving Italy. An epic fail, which was called just that, in its own time.
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Gregory Crouch
Social climber
Walnut Creek, California
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Jan 20, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
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Having slept on this, I'm finding myself more uncomfortable with this than I was last night.
Here are my more developed thoughts: http://gregcrouch.com/2012/the-compressor-route-chopped-more-thoughts
The gist:
I find myself lamenting its loss, and I’m hurt that members of my community have taken it away from me without even giving me an opportunity to voice my opinion about whether or not it should stand. Without giving ANY of the rest of us that opportunity.
That route was our common possession, and now it’s gone.
(also, as an irrelevant aside, would somebody please visit my blog from North Dakota. The hole in my google analytics data is making me crazy! ;-) )
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 20, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
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As an old guy, I would love to be reminded of exactly which "ethical context" of the time included hauling gas-powered compressors up routes...
That Maestri contemplated and acquired a gas-powered compressor in the first place tells you everything you need to know about his intent for the route before ever leaving Italy. An epic fail, which was called just that, in its own time The ethical context was the systematic bolting of the wall to reach the summit. Maestri used the last technology of the time. Which, indeed, was a novelty, although controversial and heavily criticized. It's part of climbing evolution to utilize new technologies. Some might become successful, other might be criticised and abandoned. Now, most of HLF (High-Long-Free) routes are opened using electric drills. So, was it really a big deal?
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jan 20, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
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Good on this. It is quite surprisingly after all that this kooky compressor business of Maestri's hadn't been cleared out long long ago. It was akin to finding an upside down abandoned car body in El Cap Meadow or the Louvre ceiling leaking on to the Mona Lisa. Good on you too, Snorky just above... Steve Schneider seems to be having a really rough time recently and has me frankly worried even more now. His brother and mom are friends of mine. All this does not need to be a drama at all.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 20, 2012 - 02:35pm PT
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What a freakin drama.
We scream when we put em in and we scream when we take em out .....
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 20, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
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I saw Maestri's Terrible Hubris more along the lines of someone having scrawled a mustachio across Mona Lisa's Smile.
Sadly, It's removal would have some few say that it's having been there is all the justification needed for it's continued presence and to condemn the restorers for imposing their elitist will on the world
Question, did David Lama and Red Bull ask the locals if they would mind them adding more unnecessary bolts and bailing leaving a ton of crap behind? Kennedy and Kruk left it better than they found it. Isn't that what we all should strive to do? Props to the MEN!.
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guest
climber
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Jan 20, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
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Hi Enzolino -- I don't think the ethic and style of climbing mountains in 1970-71 (when Maestri did the compressor) included, for the most part, using a gas-powered compressor to install lines of bolts beside perfect cracks. I've seen his bolts -- it is truly crazy. In 1970-71, people, including Maestri -- I am aware of some of his great climbs and his talent -- were perfectly capable of climbing and naturally protecting splitter 5.7-5.9 cracks (as some of the parts of the CR are, as I recall -- whatever it was, it's not 5.13 seams that don't take pro). My understanding of history is that the direttissima had evolved well beyond Maestri's antics on Cerro Torre. I can't think of other places in the world where, in that time/day, placing bolt ladders up 5.7 cracks was accepted. Again, I think the global reaction to Maestri's antics at the time support this notion.
Studly -- as I wrote in my last post, I'm not sure this "permission & support" thing is super relevant, at least not without considering that Maestri certainly had no permission from the community in the first place. I disagree that this is "what it all boils down to." One could say that two wrongs don't make a right (though I don’t believe the chopping to necessarily be “wrong”—my opinion), fair enough, but don't ignore the fact that the initial transgression came from an "outsider" going full cowboy himself.
Maybe Hayden & Jason should have gotten consensus from the community there? Yeah, good luck with that in either direction (yay or nay). How does one define the community, and a consensus? Community meaning…the college kids from Buenos Aires working in Chalten for the summer? The people who go there and do some bouldering? Argentine citizens, regardless of whether or not they’re climbers informed on the topic? Those who've been on Cerro Torre? Must they have summitted? If so, by which routes? Those who've spent a ton of time in the peaks there? The rangers? Who? Even so, what do you say about Maestri's not having "permission and support" to do his desecration in the first place? If one wants to assail Hayden and Jason for not having such permission, ya cannot ignore Maestri's doing the same. I would say that Maestri did greater damage to begin with. While I know that some still think H&J were wrong, I don't think it's fair to lambast them without the context of the initial atrocity -- guess that's my main point in regards to your point. Sorry for the rambles!
--Kelly
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 20, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
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Hi Enzolino -- I don't think the ethic and style of climbing mountains in 1970-71 (when Maestri did the compressor) included, for the most part, using a gas-powered compressor to install lines of bolts beside perfect cracks. I've seen his bolts -- it is truly crazy. In 1970-71, people, including Maestri -- I am aware of some of his great climbs and his talent -- were perfectly capable of climbing and naturally protecting splitter 5.7-5.9 cracks (as some of the parts of the CR are, as I recall -- whatever it was, it's not 5.13 seams that don't take pro). My understanding of history is that the direttissima had evolved well beyond Maestri's antics on Cerro Torre. I can't think of other places in the world where, in that time/day, placing bolt ladders up 5.7 cracks was accepted. Again, I think the global reaction to Maestri's antics at the time support this notion What do you mean by 5.7-5.9 cracks?
Dolomite rock, typical Maestri's playground, is characterized by thin cracks where you place relatively thin pitons. Maybe Maestri was unfamiliar on granit and very familiar with bolt ladders, that for him to add bolts close to those cracks was not such a big deal. Now, the bolts close to the 5.7-5.9 cracks are considered a blasphemy, but not in Maestri's time. At least in my opinion.
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guest
climber
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Jan 20, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
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BTW, sounds like, so far, that the "Compressor Route Chopped" thing is an overstatement (man, it's a weird world the way info travels -- I don't think anyone has even heard from Hayden & Jason yet; sh#t, what if all of this hubbub is about nothing, and they were like, "nah dude, we were in the bar the whole time" ha! -- then again, hearing the info from Rolo is as solid as solid can be). From how it sounds, the most significant bolt chopping was the headwall -- same as Maestri himself did on his way down, after he'd installed them on his way up. CT must have the most bizarre history of any peak in the world.
Sounds like the 5.7 bolt ladders and such are still there for people who want them. Ya just maybe have to do some legitimate climbing to reach the top now. (Elitist!!!!)
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guest
climber
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Jan 20, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
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What do you mean by 5.7-5.9 cracks? Enzolino -- I meant the 5.7-to-5.9 bolted cracks on the Compressor Route. (That grade range is an estimation -- point being that he put up bolt ladders by cracks perfectly protectable in that day and age.)
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 20, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
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He threw away his bold past and was flipping the bird at the world of Alpinism.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 20, 2012 - 03:23pm PT
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Maestri used the latest technology of the time. Which, indeed, was a novelty, although controversial and heavily criticized.
It's sure hard to counter logic this tortured. Glad it's done, hopefully someone will now do a last cleanup survey and plug the holes. With a good patch job it will be much closer to the way Maestri found it. Hard to imagine why anyone would want to memorialize and preserve such an embarrassing hatchet job and blight on a beautiful piece of stone like CT.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Jan 20, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
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Apparently the holes are still there?
Easy enough to refill. Harder to redrill.
Bolt wars always end up being a bummer for the rock.
Historical route. Not on my list of things to do, but, kinda siding with Greg Crouch on this one.
I'd be a bit bummed if I went to climb a classic wall or three here in the states and some kids chopped a bolt ladder on rappel after doing a variation off to the side (while still using some bolts and aid).
Smacks of a bit of elitism to me.
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Alex C
Mountain climber
Cambridge
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Jan 20, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
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<Dolomite rock, typical Maestri's playground, is characterized by thin cracks where you place relatively thin pitons. Maybe Maestri was unfamiliar on granit and very familiar with bolt ladders, that for him to add bolts close to those cracks was not such a big deal. Now, the bolts close to the 5.7-5.9 cracks are considered a blasphemy, but not in Maestri's time. At least in my opinion.>
It sounds as though you're suggesting he didn't know how to protect granite hand cracks naturally so had to use bolts. Which is, frankly, bizarre.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jan 20, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
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kudos to their climb.
on the other hand, if they rapped of of some of the bolts while chopping others i wonder if they can spell hypocrisy?
does this also invalidate all other guys climbs of CT as the route was not fair....
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 20, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
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Hawkeye, read the whole thread. It has been covered.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 20, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
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IIRC, Maestri was/is a mountain guide, and quite an experienced one. What does his resume show about climbing the western Alps, which is much more granitic = wider cracks?
Also, he was in Patagonia in 1958 - 59, and whatever he did on Cerro Torre - getting part way to the "Col of Conquest", anyway - must have given him some experience on cracks. Twelve years later he'd surely added to it.
Whatever they may do there now, were cracks in the Alps bolted in 1958, or 1970?
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