Sugarloaf: New(ish) Routes

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rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Mar 30, 2012 - 11:17pm PT

Ron, Lets go sometime in the next 2-3 weeks. Anytime you have to spare, i'm on a pretty flexible schedule. ricksumner@ymail.com

Salamanizer

Trad climber

The land of Fruits & Nuts!

Mar 30, 2012 - 11:43pm PT

But remember there's just one rule. leave established routes alone. Where will it end.?

Agreed.

Rick, I lump you in with the likes of Smith and Crawford not so much for your routes or any perceived testicular fortitude. Rather for your uncompromising standards and ability to inspire having produced the still to this day best guidebook for the Hwy 50 corridor.

Those guys raised and set the standard, you chiseled it in stone.

Roughster

Sport climber

Vacaville, CA

Mar 31, 2012 - 02:03pm PT

So let me get this straight. Guys who by chance were born before others and climbed easily identified crags that are the most obvious somehow deserve more respect then anyone? Even of those discoveries that are yet to occur??

LOL

My hat goes off to the guys who have the persistence and vision to keep looking and find new crags that havent been developed yet despite many years of others having overlooked or not been willing to put in the effort.

History is a lesson, not a mandate to be repeated. Certainly I can respect the skill and boldness of previous generations, but in many respects, definitely in the area of finding new crags, the newer generations get way more props.

I don't support retro bolting routes, but honestly many of them would be better off if they were. The dusty cobwebs classics of old are sometimes relics best left as monuments to the past, but often are a waste of prime real estate. Just because Route 66 was classic, it didn't stop them from building I-10 and I-40 :)

Jon Taylor

Trad climber

Gardnerville

Mar 31, 2012 - 02:06pm PT

I'm looking for partners with the particular skill set, mental and physical makeup,and attitude to take on the daunting slab. 1) must be a minimum of fifty years old with their best days at least two decades in the past. 2) must be capable of and willing to climb 5.3d even without protection and must be capable of and willing to reduce the climb, by any means necessary including but not limited to; use of pitons, liberal spraying of bolts, chiseling holds, gluing on artificial holds, lassoing, use of ladders,...

Jeez Sumner, why not add long walks in the park, coffee shops on rainy days...

You sure your on the right site man....Think Im gettin a hot flash

RattyJ

Trad climber

Pine Grove

Mar 31, 2012 - 02:40pm PT

Nope, no one's saying that. You completely missed the mark man.

Roughster

Sport climber

Vacaville, CA

Mar 31, 2012 - 04:18pm PT

The red and green guides produced by Sumner, Todd, Dexter and Taylor was THE most significant addition to tahoe climbing and history that there ever has been, or ever will be.

Hmm I guess you're right....

I am not a young whipper snapper, but I really dislike the IWSMB BITD posts. It Was So Much Better Back In The Day for those of you wondering what the hell.

Many climbs if climbed today by the EXACT same people at the same age would be totally different. Why?? Because the style, protection, access to protection, and the cost of climbing was different then. Things weren't better BITD, they were simply BITD. Most of the routes were developed to the style at the time, but that doesn't mean that somehow that style is superior or that they got it right. If they develop an invisible no hole protection that allows lead climbing on "crackless" faces on friable rock, should my generation say that the routes put up in the 90s and 00s should be left with the bolts in the wall as a tribute to the past?

Oh well, arguments of this nature will be over in the next 20-30 years, and I think for the betterment of the climbing community as a whole. If you're wondering about why 20-30, most likely if you are reading this thread, take your current age and add 20-30...

rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Mar 31, 2012 - 06:33pm PT

Taylor, its all about entertainment;you can't deny that is why you are on the site.I've come out of nowhere, seemingly back from the dead, to spice things up a bit in an effort to drag like minded individuals out of the ether and onto real rock adventures. I can promise you this-we'll most certainly meet with little measureable success (by todays standards), but we'll have a barrel of laughs and in the end that is of more importance.So old buddy, pull up your knickers, untie from the spaghetti mess of you and your girlfriends cordilette and e-mail me that your in. By the way, do you want to be Victor or Carlos this time out. ricksumner@ymail.com

Footloose

Trad climber

Lake Tahoe

Mar 31, 2012 - 06:36pm PT

Rick, welcome to supertopo.

Curious, do you have a younger brother, Pat?

if so, went to school with him in SLT and hung out in Jacks Valley
together back in the 70s... good times.

rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Mar 31, 2012 - 07:02pm PT

Footloose, Yes Pat is my little brother. For the last twenty years he has worked as an Electrical Engineer for Qualcomm in San Diego.He's in charge of the testing department-getting the bugs out of the chips before manufacture which sometimes requires complete redesign. He's a pretty solid 5.10-11 trad climber as well.For the last 30 years i've done the bulk of my once a year or whatever climbing with him. Tell me your name and i'll pass on the inquiry. Also, do you fit my demanding criteria as i described in a previous post on this site? ricksumner@ymail.com

Footloose

Trad climber

Lake Tahoe

Mar 31, 2012 - 07:12pm PT

Wow, that's really something!

I gave you a ride somewhere, Pat and I did once. I was really into bodybuilding and pullups at the time (to set the school record) and remember to this day Pat's big brother sporting these big (bicep) guns! I confess, I am a little pissed now in hindsight that you didn't take Pat and me rockclimbing, also with me for not probing you further about this climbing stuff. To think, I could've been addicted 20 years earlier, the fickle finger of fate! :)

EDIT to add...

Rick, glad to hear about Pat! Good to hear he's a climber now, too. If he's ever in the Tahoe area, have him PM me, I think it would be fantastic to rope up together after all these years. My favorite places are the Leap, Woodfords and the High Sierra. No kidding about the "big guns" either, in fact I think Pat told me at the time you could do 30 or 40 or more pullups. And the pic Ron posted below shows em!!

RattyJ

Trad climber

Pine Grove

Mar 31, 2012 - 08:24pm PT

Roughster, like I say, you totally missed the mark on that one.
Ron is talking about the Sumner guides being the most significant guides for the Tahoe area to date, which they still are. Before those guides, there was little to nothing. Then they came out opening up whole new realms of climbing and solidified the cleaner style and adventurous nature of the routes in the region with essays on style and ethics. Many routes and areas have come about since then and a little here and a little there has been added to the various books over the years, but nothing so profound as going from nothing to a full feature guide with a bible of information. That would be pretty hard to top, and yes, timing had everything to do with it.

Many climbs if climbed today by the EXACT same people at the same age would be totally different. Why?? Because the style, protection, access to protection, and the cost of climbing was different then. Things weren't better BITD, they were simply BITD. Most of the routes were developed to the style at the time, but that doesn't mean that somehow that style is superior or that they got it right.

You're right about that. But those aren't the only reasons. Alot had to do with keeping the route as clean as possible. Of course ego came into play as well, as it still does (think, people who find new areas [sugarloaf] and put up as many routes as they can squeeze in, good or not) but it was more about a good adventure with a bit of risk thrown in for fun. Today you find people on the extremes of both sides of the "old school" style. On one hand you have people putting up extremely bold and difficult routes, far beyond what people did BITD. On the other hand you have people who want convenience and protection to rarely go below ones feet.
I think as far as the leave as little trace as possible ethic, they got it right. Bolt ladders through a 5.6 section on a 5.10 climb isn't really benefiting anyone. On the other hand, generalizing and saying everything was better BITD is down right retarded.

If they develop an invisible no hole protection that allows lead climbing on "crackless" faces on friable rock, should my generation say that the routes put up in the 90s and 00s should be left with the bolts in the wall as a tribute to the past?

Whats your argument? Are you saying because we now have massive amounts of bolts, power drills and rap bolting is acceptable it would be silly not to go retro bolt every route where adequate bolts/protection wasn't used? They had tons of bolts BITD too. They could have rap bolted if they wanted to. It was all about good style and fair means.

Oh well, arguments of this nature will be over in the next 20-30 years, and I think for the betterment of the climbing community as a whole. If you're wondering about why 20-30, most likely if you are reading this thread, take your current age and add 20-30...

I don't think so. These debates have been going on for 100 years. Like I say, things are splitting into two extremes. The younger generation is actually getting bolder and embracing clean ethics and good style. Just the other day I heard a kid, no older than 12 joke about their gym being lame because they have lead bolts next to the cracks and the bolts are too close. I'm sure there will be areas and routes with the best of both worlds working in perfect harmony. I think what will go away are the scores of junk routes put up on chossy, mossy, garbage walls. The cost of bolts and hangers in 30 years will be a fortune. What you'll see is people salvaging the steel from these crappy never climbed routes to use on more worthy adventures. Its already started in a few places out here. Someone grid bolted some chossy junk, and about 10 years later the hangers started to disappear.

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2012 - 12:44am PT

Mr Anderson, Mr Sumner, Chalky Foreskin, and all the BITD crew.
If you don't like my routes tell me why and I will take the down.
All I ask is specifics and some sort of consensus.

If it bothers you that much then step up for what you believe.

Can I make my position any clearer?

a

Chalky Fingers

climber

Apr 1, 2012 - 04:34pm PT

Smegma, I have already told you to your face what I feel is wrong about said routes, so start taking them down. Much appreciated.

Scott Thelen

Trad climber

Truckee, Ca

Apr 1, 2012 - 09:49pm PT

Paint the hangers

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2012 - 12:54am PT

Ron,
I have to hand it to you, that's the best thought out piece Ive seen you post here. You and I are not as different as you think. Only I've been up there seeing possibilities for the last 20 years, and you left the place 20 years ago. I understand the aesthetics and the history,I just don't necessarily agree with you on it.
Again, specifics: If the goal was to leave Tapestry as untouched as possible, cut Crushed Velvet to half length and erase Blue Velvet. BV bolted up the lower 1/3 of Tapestry not CV.
I would not object. Nor would I to putting the classic Telesis (actually "swamp thing") back to it's original very bold line.
a

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2012 - 01:00am PT

Oh, and Chalky Foreskin................
I have no idea who you are or what the f*#k you said to my face unless it was "hey brother wanna beer?", in which case the answer is yes.

give me your mailing address and I'll ship you some Vaseline to help with the dryness..

Salamanizer

Trad climber

The land of Fruits & Nuts!

Apr 2, 2012 - 01:10am PT

At very least distinguish the bolts of Tapestry.

I went up there one day to climb the route. Got way the f*#k up there and couldn't find the bolts. That Carville guide is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!

Anyway, my belayer was down there pickin his nose and didn't have me on yet as I was going to crater anyway. So I ended up clipping bolts from Blue Velvet as it lies just to the left of the natural passage way through that face. I clipped one and moved back right to try and find the original bolts. Nothing happening, so I bailed back onto Blue Velvet and finished on that lousy route. If you follow the natural passageway, Blue Velvet is like mere feet from the path. If anything, I'd say that is the retro. Not a good route anyway. Ever climb the upper pitches? Gets progressively worse. You're making 5.10 moves two feet from 5.6 buckets. Talk about weak sauce.

If the original bolts of Tapestry were easily distinguished, at very least I could have seen them and made the judgement call of "maybe" or "oh hell no".

rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Apr 2, 2012 - 12:15pm PT

I wasn't going to enter this debate again but their are a few corrections of the record i think maybe helpful.Besides Tapestry their are several other routes from bitd in the same vein- Pigs on the wing 5.10x, Beer Can Alley (original) 5.10r/x(my leads), Pearl Pillar 5.10x (Dexter), and a couple in woodfords canyon the most prominent being a 3 pitch slab route right of the waterfall at the bottom of the canyon we called Senior Center Slab 5.10x (miller). Any of these routes could have been reduced in seriousness by bolting, we knew how to rappel and how to place bolts but we didn't because on our good days we were capable of climbing at this level absent protection and we wanted a few climbs to stand as a challenge for those in the future. In other words they were deliberate not an accident because of lack of equipment or know how.Aiden seems like an honorable man and he seems to be getting the point that a route that uses the same protection points and some of the same holds/path is not a new route. I know of at least 4 repeats of Tapestry in its original form and i can tell you definitively no 2 people used the exact same combination of holds, or even the exact same path, but rather what they found to be the path of least resistence on their particular ascent.I have faith that Aiden will restore the route to its original form (hopefully with new two 3/8" bolts to replace the 35+ year old 1/4" bolts)

Chalky Fingers

climber

Apr 2, 2012 - 01:36pm PT

Hey Aiding, I'm Tad. Talk about internet tough guys. You take the cake. When we had these talks you stood there like a puppy with his tail between his legs rolling on its back and peeing himself. The last conversation we had on the subject at the base of Surrealistic you needed a woman to get you out of the conversation so you could bid a hasty retreat. That was when I asked you about you lying on the internet saying you had planned on putting a route up on lead after you had placed rap bolts next to a crack to put the route "down" on rap. Cowardly people make cowardly climbers.

P.S. I would NEVER offer you a beer!