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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jennie, the charts you posted about 20 back: How big (or small) is "Lolo Zone"? They indicate, at least for that area, that elk populations have been steadily declining since the mid-1980s, which I believe is well before wolves were reintroduced, certainly in any significant number.
Idaho’s Lolo Zone:
Yes, Anders, the decline began several years before the large wolf population established itself. According to Idaho Fish and Game, the decline in late eighties and into the nineties was an overharvest due to F & G biologists allowing an excess of hunter permits. Later in the nineties severe winters took their toll on the elk population.
According to Fish and Game, they have conducted extensive research that indicates wolf predation is now the leading cause of death of adult cow elk and calves older than six months. There are at least 12 wolf packs in “the Lolo” now.
Since the return of wolves to Idaho 15 years ago, Idaho’s overall elk population has dropped by 20 percent from 125,000to about 100,000.
However, elk counts are not below goals in all management districts.
Elk population trends depend on the survival rates of female elk and calves. To maintain the population, typically about 88 percent of the breeding female elk must survive, and enough calves must survive to replace the adult animals that die each year.
Elk survival depends primarily on four factors: habitat conditions, weather, predation and hunter harvest.
Wolf density is not consistent and continual throughout the state of Idaho. Wolf density in the Lolo zone is especially high. These fish and game graphs demonstrate relative elk population decline in a zone with high wolf density compared to the Sawtooth zone (with medium wolf density)
Elk numbers are currently well below management objectives in the Lolo and Selway Zones. Since the early to mid 1990’s, elk calves to cow ratios have continued to decline, and have been at levels too low to sustain elk populations.
According to Fish and Game, elk hunting permits have been cut to 1/6 of 1999 levels. In my opinion hunting should cease in zones with endangered game populations. But… hunting culture is deeply ingrained here and hunting bans will certainly bring more rage against government meddling, more anarchy and increase illegal shooting of predators.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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I for one would not want to eat beef raised 100% on a feedlot! You're only asking for super dosed antibiotic fed animals, complete with growth hormones added. Most beef is finished on a feedlot for final fattening and preparation for slaughter. The conditions for the animals are not that nice, I assure you. Sure, they get a lot to eat, but unless the management practices are extremely good, the sanitation leaves a lot to be desired. Can you say e.coli?
"Finishing" a steer generally takes 90 days on grain to have anything really worth eating. For my own use, the steer gets a spacious corral all to himself, and essentially all the food he can eat, including good naturally grown grass hay over and above 25 pounds of COB (corn-oats-barley-molasses)daily. A supply of household quality water and mineral blocks and salt completes the setup.
Confinement of an animal any longer than that is simply not humane. Cows are very social (herd animals), and yes, they become depressed. Fortunately for my animals, they have nearly a thousand acres to graze during the Summer, and in Winter they are fed on the hay meadows, with the site for putting out hay constantly moving around. Since they crap a lot while eating, this removes the need for having a manure spreader. My manure spreaders all have 4 legs.
Bottom line: feedlot raised all their lives = unhealthy animals and is inhumane.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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This post is specifically directed to nick d:
I really didn't know whether to ROFLMAO or just cry ovver the comments about Ted Turner! All he has is a ton of money and a very stupid agenda. He has about as much chance of ever making a dime in ranching as I have of being elected Pope, and it's damned hard for a Lutheran to become Pope.
Buffalo are probably the worst case scenario to quote. They cannot be effectively controlled unless a fortune is spent on fencing. "Buffalo," or American Bison, are reservoirs for Brucellosis. For your information, Brucellosis causes miscarriages in all bovines, and is a real problem in ranching.
I had (past tense intended) a neighbor with 57 "Buffalo" who lived 2 ranches away from mine. he had "Buffalo" because he was a lazy bastard who didn't ever put up any hay, and figured they would "take care of themselves." Sure they did---they tore down his fences and raided all the haystacks in the neighborhood. My haystack was one of the ones raided, and I lost 18 tons of hay as a result. The f*#k went bankrupt and lost his ranch by forclosure. The neighbors contacted the State Brand Inspector and trail drove the animals to the livestock auction for sale. I still never got paid for my $4,500 of hay since he declared bankruptcy. I had a "double whammy" since I had to go replace the hay for my own animals, out-of-pocket. So--Fukk Ted Turner, and Fukk a whole bunch of "Buffalo."
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Rox-
Elk IS good, but Moose is the best. Just below Elk is Whitetail Deer, then Buffalo, then Mule Deer, and at the bottom is Pronghorn Antelope (goat!).
My beef is better than all of them. That's why I have a waiting list for fed steers, and they pay $3.50-$4.00 a pound, hanging weight to get it. Lord only knows what the Japanese would pay for a side of my beef?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2012 - 01:18am PT
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Broke,
With all due respect, I have appreciated your thoughtful comments, I put
reindeer above moose, except at Christmas. It is an unfair comparison due
to the reindeer being managed which is a tough row to hoe with moose.
I've certainly had a lot of good moose and can only wonder how much better
they could be if they hadn't been eating all manner of nasty stuff in the woods! :-)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Reindeer is good eating.
A simple solution to overly chewy meat, whatever the source, is to mince it.
Maybe we should have a Rodger-fest, and instead of sushi, have all sorts of meat and produce from his ranch? We'd have to help with chores, and of course pay for our food, but it'd be fun. Maybe there's climbing somewhere around there, or we could do a barn raising or such. Or we could do it at the FaceLift next year, if we could arrange to bring the wherewithal.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan and Jennie are like incredible secret weapons.
As women in the West have always been.
I have a great great grandmother who stayed up all night barricaded in her ranch house with her shotgun, her husband away at a horse sale, while Commanche Indians slaughtered the milk cows and spent all night trying to get an iron chain and lock off the family's prized quarter horse.
She spent the next week nursing until they died painful deaths, women friends of hers who had been raped and scalped by the same raiding party. Her friends decided to flee and got caught. She decided to go down fighting if it came to that, to save her three small children in the house with her, and survived.
As brokedown said, the land was free but not without cost.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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DMT-
If you want a really interesting and nuanced version of the old West, read the paperback, Empire of the Summer Moon: Quannah Parker and the Rise and Fall of the Commanches, the Most Powerful Indian Tribe in American History by S.C. Gynne.
The book is full of ironies based on historical fact including that Quannah Parker was the son of a Commanche chief and an American woman who was captured as a child by the Commanches after they killed most of her family.
My Hispanic relatives in New Mexico were interviewed for the book as their ancestors, who traded with the Commanche for centuries, are known derisively in Texas as Commancheros . They as much as the Commanche are blamed for the many kidnappings of pioneer children as the ransoms raised for the children was used by the Commanche to purchase guns and ammunition from the Commanchero.
Neither Hispanics nor Commanches liked the Anglos. The Apache and Navaho detested all three groups. Mainly though, we can say that the introduction of anything new to an environment whether people, guns, or wolves, has many repercussions beyond what the original participants foresee.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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DMT-
At war with ALL native species? Not at all! I'm pleased to have the deer, antelope, elk, and wild game birds here. I also have a mated pair of bald eagles who winter here on the ranch. I personally treasure the wildlife. Just not "re-introduced" wolves, or coyotes. There are quite a few red foxes, but I strictly leave them alone.
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WBraun
climber
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All right everyone calm down.
Every farmer will get A "Little Red Riding Hood" to outwit that big bad wolf .....
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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All you wolf haters need to move to Compton, Ca.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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DMT-
There's absolutely no way hunting access fees come close to making the activity "profitable," but simply offset some of my expenses in repairing damage done to fences by elk, and the feed I provide the wild turkeys to get them through the tough times in the Winter. And no, I don't allow any bird hunting before you make another assinine comment.
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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Which example of a vicious and sucessful predator would you rather see about to be killing you?
If you want to find the TOP predator in your community I suggest
you visit your state's sex offender registry. For amusement I include
the link for Idaho's:
http://www.isp.idaho.gov/sor_id/search.html
Seriously, which are you more likely to encounter? At least in "wolf country" you can carry a gun. But your 11 year old daughter can't pack heat on her way to the local 7-11 to get a slurpee.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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There is the disturbing tendency of anyone with a rifle or shotgun (or pistol), including many hunters and farmers, to shoot at anything and everything. From stop signs through to varmints to real predators to birds of prey to deer, elk, moose etc. Plus poaching - about 1/2 of all animals are killed illegally. For the most part, with impunity. How do you manage for that?
A colleague used to do wildlife prosecutions. What they'd do is set up a dummy deer on a resource roads leading out of town, on a Friday evening during hunting season (autumn). It had highly reflective "eyes", just like a real deer, that were operated by long wire from a distance. They'd set it up so that a truck would come around a curve, and suddenly "see" the deer. A majority of the trucks stopped, and the occupants shot at the "deer". Sometimes they shot while the truck was moving. In some cases, they kept shooting as a police car came up behind, lights and siren on.
Most of them got convicted of drunk driving. More serious, easier to convict. It wasn't a setup that worked for long in most small towns, but it definitely sent a signal.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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I didn't read the whole thread so sorry if this has already been asked. Typically, how do ranchers protect their cows/cattle ? In the old days and/or in rural societies they had herders that stayed with the flock. Does anyone still do that? If you don't protect the cattle then you would have to kill all it's natural predators to keep them safe while they roam around unwatched. Is that what is going on?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Wyoming has some pretty strict enforcement in many respects, and I've had illegal hunters hauled away by the Game Wardens. Conviction for almost any G & F infraction nets a $750.00 fine as a 3rd degree misdemeanor. The illegal hunting, if trespass is involved, gets even pricier.
There are 2 types of trespass: "simple trespass," and "criminal trespass." The first kind, "simple trespass," is going on to private property without permission and no "private property" signs are evident. This usually gets a strong warning from the sheriff's deputy but no arrest or citation. Just "get outta' here and don't come back." The "criminal" variety is knowledgable trespass and signs are present, or the offender has been given verbal warning. That's another case where the deputy will normally issue a citation or make an arrest.
I don't have many problems ever since "word got around" that I don't tolerate that kind of schitt, and WILL prosecute.
My first instance was in 1998, only 2 years after I bought the ranch; I spotted a hunter walking towards the road, and he was about 350 yards onto my ranch grazing land. I simply waited for him to get back to his pickup with my pump shotgun in hand, pointed skyward. I asked him if he had hunting permission from the owners to hunt and had paid the access fees.
Answer; I don't need any permission because this is state land. Oh? Really?
I identified myself as the owner of the land, and at that point told him to put his rifle on the ground while I called the sheriff. He then decided to argue with me even after I pointed out the "No Hunting Without Written Permission" signs. I had Anne call the sheriff, and we waited as the argument continued. In less than 15 minutes the deputy arrived and I explained my side of the story. The hunter happened to know the deputy on a first name basis. The deputy also said we needed the game Warden since it was a G & F violation, but he radioed the Warden who arrived in 10 more minutes; the deputy asked me to show him where I had seen the hunter after the warden had taken over the situation. so we hopped in the Blazer and drove in crosscountry to where I'd seen the guy first. He whipped out his GPS and recorded his position for checking against the property maps at the courthouse. I then asked him how he happened to know the hunter: answer; "he's my brother-in-law." He then proceeded: "Don't worry, I'll arrest him, because he's a real a$$hole." Word really got around about that incident. It WAS kinda' funny, though.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Good work, Rodger - highlighting the problems with law enforcement in small communities, and their sometime advantages. Although once you throw guns in the mix, it can get more problematic.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Stinkeye-
There are some very questionable statistics in the article you cited, particularly since the total cattle and sheep deaths due to disease were Nationally, and included states where there are NO wolves. That skews the percentages tremendously , rendering them meaningless.
The site does not appear to be "objective," but is another "wolf-hugger" website. Sorry.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I would like to point out since I brought up the issue of women pioneers
and it has been insinuated that somehow rural folks in the interior are backwards,
that the state where women first got the right to vote was not on either of the coasts
but in Wyoming. Likewise the first women jurists in America and the first woman
Justice of the Peace. The first woman governor was also elected in Wyoming
and the second one in Texas.
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