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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Sep 20, 2011 - 11:47am PT
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I say we use alligator clips and a car battery and a vat of salt water and see how good LEB can swim.
Failing that, I'm thinking "bait", definitely not of the jail variety.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Sep 20, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
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Karl,
Inflicting unnecessary pain on animals for any reason is abhorrent to me. We have laws to minimize the pain inflicted on our food as it is slaughtered. The difference is that this is pain and suffering for sport. Especially when you add in bait dogs, there really is no comparison.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 20, 2011 - 02:47pm PT
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Inflicting unnecessary pain on animals for any reason is abhorrent to me. We have laws to minimize the pain inflicted on our food as it is slaughtered. The difference is that this is pain and suffering for sport. Especially when you add in bait dogs, there really is no comparison.
I don't buy it. Veal is kept in little boxes so they can't move, for their whole lives! Same wretched conditions for chickens and look at a feed lot sometime. It's not necessary but it saves money and is cheap.
This is just another defense of "intention" where the scale makes a difference. We drop cluster bombs and make millions of refugees and kill thousand upon thousands of civilians in Iraq but it's ok because that's collateral damage and we didn't "intend" to kill those innocent people, but some terrorist beheads some journalist and it's license to kill more thousands of innocent people.
Same with animals. We kill MILLIONS and millions of animals in bad conditions but then get all preachy about a few hundred dogs in the country.
Just sayin
peace
Karl
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Sep 20, 2011 - 04:06pm PT
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Your bitch is better than your pussy?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 20, 2011 - 04:12pm PT
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Afghans unapologetically cheer on dogfights
The blood sport, technically illegal, is lucrative and popular even among government officials. In a culture accustomed to violence, few see it as barbaric.
By Mark Magnier, Los Angeles Times
September 20, 2011
Reporting from Kabul, Afghanistan— Meyaan Ahamad dips his head into the shed where his prized fighting dog barks ferociously at the end of a chain. The dog, a Kuchi breed, has weightlifter shoulders, a massive head, the heft of a black bear and the growl of a cougar.
If Michael Vick, the American quarterback convicted of participating in an illegal dogfighting operation, were from Afghanistan, he'd probably be a national hero. In this country, canine bouts — literally "dog wars" in Dari — are keenly followed even by celebrities and government ministers.
It's not about the money, said Ahamad, whose family has bred fighters for generations. It's about knowing you've got the biggest, baddest dog around. "You get respect," he said.
Maybe. But the money isn't too shabby either. Winning dogs fetch more than $20,000 and bets worth hundreds of thousands of dollars are made during big fights. "Some people arrive in a Lexus and end up losing it betting," Ahamad said. "They go home bravely, but once inside, they cry."
Kuchis, which take their name from a nomadic tribe, can weigh as much as 175 pounds, their backs as tall as 3 feet. Bred to guard livestock and kill wolves, they're said to be naturally aggressive.
"Iranian and Pakistani dogs are all right," dog owner Abdul Qadir said. "But Kuchis are tougher, just like the Afghan people."
Technically, dogfighting is illegal here. But there's little enforcement given its popularity and how much money and how many powerful people are involved. (The champion fighter in Kabul, named Marshal, is owned by the nation's first vice president, Mohammed Fahim.) A stadium in northern Kabul seats 1,500, with smaller venues found in most neighborhoods.
"Afghans are from a warrior culture," said Marnie Gustavson, an animal lover, Kuchi owner and executive director of Parsa, a civic group helping underprivileged Afghans. "They fight everything — birds, camels, kites. Why would dogs be any different?"
Before fights, Kuchis are taken for long walks on steep mountain paths and fed a special diet believed to enhance their strength and ferocity, owners said, including eggs and sheep's feet.
Most matches take place during the cooler months, October to February, when the dogs are more energetic and their wounds are said to heal faster. Fights can last five to 90 minutes. "It can take two weeks to get them healed and their energy back after a fight," Ahamad said, "and a lot of sheep feet."
Afghans remain unapologetic about this blood sport, contending that the Kuchis are treated better than family and fighting is in their nature. Matches are also more humane than in other countries, they say, because they're halted before the loser is killed, with fights often stopped when the loser bares its teeth.
"I used to beat my dogs to make them tougher," said Ahamad, sporting a neatly trimmed beard and a green vest over his traditional shalwar kameez. "But they'd get so scared. They'd pee when they saw me, so I stopped."
Animal welfare is a rather foreign concept in Afghanistan. There's little history of keeping pets in this country, which traditionally has had barely enough to feed itself, with animals expected to plow, guard or otherwise earn their keep. And many Muslims consider dogs unclean.
Three decades of war has made brutality part of life's daily fabric, analysts said, not to mention the residual effect of years living under the Taliban, which killed dogs and beat their owners (although dog owners said betting on fights continued in secret).
In February, the Taliban detonated bombs twice in Kandahar in and around dogfights, killing 25 people.
"Afghans are angry," Gustavson said. "It's a culture of violence. And someone who beats their dog probably beats their wife."
The ones most concerned with animal welfare here tend to be foreigners, who generally tread lightly.
"We never raise the issue or tell Afghans not to have dogfights," said Pen Farthing, a former British soldier who started Nowzad Dogs, an animal rescue charity operating in Afghanistan, after serving there for seven years. "We'd lose all credibility. Instead, we focus on helping strays."
Photos: Afghan dogfights
Farthing started the group, which keeps about 60 dogs at a secret location to avoid Taliban attacks, after breaking up a dogfight in Helmand province and adopting one of the fighters. He has recruited a few Afghan boys to help him feed those awaiting adoption, hoping to improve attitudes among the next generation.
Not all Afghans are fans of dogfights.
"It's not instinct that makes them fight and bleed; they're trained that way," said Ramin Raha, 25, a music student. "Not that I necessarily blame their owners. With no human rights in Afghanistan, how can you expect animal rights?"
Ahamad and Qadir said they each keep two dogs, their best prospect and a second in case the first one loses. After a loss, dogs are often abandoned to avoid the expense of feeding them. Owners say it's a blessing because they're finally free. Animal lovers say it sentences them to a life of subsistence, disease and fighting.
Either way, Ahamad sees little need to change an age-old system he's passionate about.
"Dogfighting in Afghanistan is thousands of years old," he said. "And it will continue for thousands more."
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-afghanistan-dogfights-pictures,0,7385367.photogallery
mark.magnier@latimes.com
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nature
climber
back in Tuscon Aridzona....
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Sep 20, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
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Ever been to Tijuana and had a "carne" asada taco?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 20, 2011 - 06:46pm PT
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Karl nothing will dislodge dog love. Fuggetabout it. The combined evolution of dogs and humans elevates dogs above all other pets. (cats included)
Some people are going to treat dogs like people, or surrogate kids. Its just the way it is.
DMT
Not trying to dislodge Dog love (although it's funny, not all cultures have it, some eat dog and others both keep dogs as pets and eat em too!) But seeing if I could get some dog love to rub off on the general welfare of animals.
I eat fish sometimes though. I'd kill those slimy suckers with my bare hands if I had to, which is my moral test if whether it's OK to eat something. be prepared to do it yourself.
peace
karl
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dirtbag
climber
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Sep 20, 2011 - 06:50pm PT
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Veal I avoid for the reasons you describe, Karl.
But frankly, I'm ignorant about pork production.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 20, 2011 - 07:22pm PT
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In America dog is god.
They worship the dog and slaughter everything else.
One of the most barbaric and violent countries in the world is America the land of the slaves ......
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 20, 2011 - 07:51pm PT
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Pigs are allegedly ranked #4 in animal inteligence. here's some info
http://www.suite101.com/content/the-intelligent-pig-a84448
'Intelligence research was done with pigs in the 1990s. One of the experiments was to train the pigs to move the cursor on a video screen with their snouts. When the pigs used the cursors again, they were able to distinguish between the scribbles they already knew, and the scribbles they were seeing for the first time. The pigs learned this skill as fast as the chimpanzees.
All species of pig are smarter than dogs, and capable of abstract representation. “They can hold an icon in their mind, and remember it at a later date,” says Professor Stanley Curtis of Penn State University, who discovered that pigs dominate at video games with joy sticks. Curtis goes on to say, “Pigs are able to focus with an intensity I have never seen in a chimp.”
Smarter Than a Three-Year-Old Child
Other tests were done where the pigs were taught the meaning of simple words and phrases. Several years later, the instructions were repeated, and the pigs still remembered what to do. The same thing was done with different objects placed in front of them. They were taught to jump over, sit by, or retrieve the item. Three years later, they could distinguish between the items.
The studies also showed:
Pigs lead complex social lives that behaviorists once believed to be true only of primates.
Mother pigs sing to their piglets while they are nursing.
They excel at video games that would be hard for a young child, and sometimes better than the primates.
Pigs dream.
Pigs have a good sense of direction, and can find their way home from long distances.
They learn from watching one another.
Pigs outsmart each other. One will often follow another pig to food before grabbing it away from him, and the pig who was tricked will change behaviors to reduce how many times it is tricked.
(Worth noting that both Judaism and Islam forbid eating Pigs. Jesus didn't eat em either but apparently bible believing Christians found a loophole for this old testament prohibition while somehow leaving gays an abomination. )
Peace
Karl
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2011 - 10:14pm PT
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Karl/Werner-
Have you ever squashed a bug? Ever slapped a mosquito or horsefly?
It is one thing to squash the bug, it is another to torture it first.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sep 20, 2011 - 10:47pm PT
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I think Karl's point is that we spend quite a bit of energy trying to put a stop to dog fighting, but not much energy trying to make sure the animals we eat are at least treated decently while they live. It forms a sort of hypocrisy.
How many people even know where their food is produced. I certainly don't know. I try to buy things like free range meat, but the definitions are so loose. If you eat eggs or chicken from the store, do you have any idea what the life of a chicken is like. The FDA has minimums for things like amount of space per chicken, but have you ever really looked to see what that means. Its pretty weird when you see how packed in chicken houses are.
Some of my friend are from rural Germany. They say meat production there is much different. You often know the farmer whose animal you are purchasing, and you know how that animal was raised. You know Whether they are decent to the animal or not. A far cry from our mass produced society.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2011 - 11:11pm PT
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Moosie-
I think I understand. I like MEAT. I am a carnivore. It does disturb me how the aninmls I eat are abused. The animals you reference in your reference to Germany are most likely killed in the most humane way possible.
They are not tortured, electrocuted for hours with low voltage power or drowned. That is the point of this thread. Vick did not go out and kill an animal for food. He tortured them for his pleasure and to entertain his friends. There is a fundamental difference here.
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dirtbag
climber
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Sep 20, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
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Thanks Karl.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 20, 2011 - 11:39pm PT
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johntp
And you regularly maintain slaughterhouses just to satisfy your tongue.
No difference.
For your enjoyment of sense gratification you slaughter animals and eat them all while there is plenty of sufficient foods grains milk vegetables fruits nuts etc etc .....
You also check the evolutionary progress of their souls .....
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sep 21, 2011 - 12:29am PT
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Johntp, I was thinking more in terms of how they live their entire lives. Not just their deaths.
Dog fighting = tough life + tough death
Animals raised for food can often = tough life + being killed
And I'm not saying all animals that are raised for food live a tough life, but I have seen enough situations that I know its not that great in America. Yet you hear more about an isolated case of dog fighting because it involves a celebrity then you do about the 1000s of cases of animals raised in deplorable conditions just because those conditions meet some FDA approval for square foot per animal. Go look at a large chicken farm. It can get crazy. And if your eggs or chicken happen to come from Mexico, then all bets are off. I do have mixed feelings about this because I do eat meat.
I do have relatives who raise cattle. My brother is married to a woman whose father owns a 100,000 acre cattle ranch in New Mexico. He is renowned for how well he treats his cattle. He mainly does it because he says he can put more pounds on an animal faster if he treats it well, so its not to say that he does it to be altruistic, but he does treat his animals remarkably well.
But as Werner would say.. Right up to the point where he kills them to eat them.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sep 21, 2011 - 01:04am PT
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Come Lois. It is not a defense of Vick. Its an indictment of the shallowness of our society. If it involves something we like, such as eating meat, then we often don't look at it very hard.
We aren't excusing Vick. We are wondering why we don't give the same energy to dealing with the treatment of animals we raise to eat. Their death for our desire isn't the only issue. There is also the way they live their life.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sep 21, 2011 - 01:10am PT
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No.. its not separate. Its the same issue. How we treat animals. Do we go after justice for all animals, or just dogs.
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
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Sep 21, 2011 - 01:11am PT
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I just sleep alittle better knowing no animals were slaughtered for my food. ymmv
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 21, 2011 - 01:48am PT
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You just want to discuss Vick's sin from a condescending standpoint of assumed virtue without the inconvenient truth of your participation in the industry of death and pain.
And it's not just a survival, gotta eat issue, or even "i can't help myself, I like meat issue." If you pay more for free range, organic meat, at least you can say you did the best you could given your weak human hypocrisy, but many won't even do that, if the animal suffers more but it's cheaper, we buy that instead.
Just food for thought as we cluck with distain over the sins of Vick. Good to see how much of our own culture is wrapped up in it.
I was trekking in Nepal and some folks from Hong Kong walked by and saw a cute black dog near where I was standing. Super nice folks, big smiles, probably more civil than most of us here. One guy joked. "In China, black dog is regarded as best tasting dog, good luck to you tonight!" Of course he knew that wasn't the way the Nepalese rolled.
Which is more respect that American have. In India, eating cow is just as unthinkable for most as eating dog is for us. Still Americans go there and expect cow burgers in the 5 star hotels
Peace
karl
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