Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 06:07am PT
|
Rich, there is nothing complicated about this issue. Hot henry has always had a bad case of WMS ( watch me syndrome) He can't climb hard enough these days to get any atention so the only way he can get attention is to chop a bolt that would have been ok for him to chop 30 years ago but has become part of the route due to statue of limitations or common law marrige or whatever big word you edumacated guys use.
|
|
steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 06:15am PT
|
Rgold,
THAT "rant" was one of the best pieces of writing I have ever read on S.T. Bravo!
I would think perhaps you were an English prof; rather than your chosen field.
That piece would make a great editorial for a quality climbing magazine. In any case I think the majority of seasoned climbers would agree with your sentiments in total.
I have been climbing more this year, all trad, than in recent memory. My feelings on this subject have become more passionate, as have my love of climbing.
I couldn't have expressed them in writing as clearly as you did.
|
|
Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 07:26am PT
|
Well said rgold.
|
|
Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 09:04am PT
|
From rgold: So yes, the bolt was an outrage and should have been chopped immediately, in my opinion. And it shouldn't have been Henry who did it, it should have been local climbers who respected the traditions and accomplishments of their own area.
I agree. And what does this commentary tell us about the local fellow who needed the gumby bolt? Eddie should have had sack BITD. But it's too late now and it's on the internet, so it must be true.
|
|
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 09:19am PT
|
rgold,
you have made a trivial distinction of the essence of all that matters. When you arrive at the top of Superpin having not been temped to clip any bolts you will know it? Is it that the only way trad climbers can measure accomplishment is by physical proof--there were no bolts. Get a brain with some storage registers "for memory".
I don't think that the state of climbing rules is such that we need to invoke the incompleteness theorem but that the process of feeling accomplishment is bound up in the genes of how we perceive. Our perceptual outcome differences arise from similar genetic makeup differences like that of which researchers have found that distinguish the acquirement of the thoughts of democrats from the fears of republicans.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 09:58am PT
|
No need to insult the man dingus. He clearly and succinctly layed out the full position pages earlier, if all you have is insults than you really don't have sh#t.
Take care all
rgold,
you have made a trivial distinction of the essence of all that matters. When you arrive at the top of Superpin having not been temped to clip any bolts you will know it? Is it that the only way trad climbers can measure accomplishment is by physical proof--there were no bolts. Get a brain with some storage registers "for memory".
I don't think that the state of climbing rules is such that we need to invoke the incompleteness theorem but that the process of feeling accomplishment is bound up in the genes of how we perceive. The perceptual outcome is bound to similar genetic makeup differences that researchers have found which distinguish the acquirement of the thoughts of democrats from the fears of republicans.
|
|
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 10:00am PT
|
couchmaster,
you read in the insult as personal.
|
|
steve shea
climber
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 11:49am PT
|
RGold that was some damn fine writing. My thoughts exactly.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 11:52am PT
|
Hmm, I just re-read your words and they did read differently. I apologize.
OK, back to "The Bolt", ego and the end of western civilization discussion with the I am always right opinions needed to finally finished this thread off in less than 4,000 reply's.
OK, make it 5,000 or so reply's till we all come to agreement and start singing Kumbaya. Right? That's what you are looking for by starting this thread?
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 12:49pm PT
|
Although I don't know Dingus well, standing around with him at Paul Muehl's house being the extent of our contact, we nonetheless go way, way back. And as a member of the Superpin route first-ascent party with Henry, he has a distinguished status in this conversation. If he wants to be a little provocative, that's fine. I'm at work and can't respond or even process what he just said. Maybe I'll respond later, if I think there is a point worth arguing further.
A time does come, even for loquacious old farts, when what can be said has been said and it is time to give the poor battered dead horse a rest. At the end of the day, agreement is not always achievable. Obviously, I think the attempt to explain a position is important, or I wouldn't have made the efforts I have so far, and this is especially true, if I understand Dingus, because of the silent Needle's local contingent monitoring this discussion and trying to arrive at an acceptable consensus for themselves.
|
|
Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
|
Am I the only one here who can't really understand most of Dingus' (McGee) responses?
|
|
Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
|
Nope.
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 01:24pm PT
|
DMT translating for DM
he said if you were such a soul surfing tradster you should be able to ignore the bolts, send the route and give yourself full credit for the trad send
Tennis, anyone? Ball returned to the purist?
I've climbed in the Needles a couple times and I was thrilled to see a bolt. The one time I did.
It is only a personal feeling, not a more general piece of advice to others, but for me, seeing a bolt on a route changes the character of my experience. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for worse. If I felt a need to climb Superpin, I think I would go back to my Devil's Lake roots and lasso it and top-rope it. A wonderful idea, IMHO.
edit
Of course, I would have my smart phone with me and a fresh battery for the pacemaker.
|
|
crunch
Social climber
CO
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
|
Thanks, Dingus, for the translation.
rgold already addressed that argument in his earlier post.
I would add that, having done plenty of risky leads over the years that idea of "ignoring" a mid-pitch bolt, while engaged in the delicate business of leading a dangerously runout climb, is impossible.
On such a lead, one is aware of everything. One is constantly recalculating a complex equation of risk and reward and desire and ability. The equation keeps shifting as one moves up the rock. it shifts one way as one becomes more pumped, more runout--but shifts back the other way as one moves closer to the end of the pitch.
A bolt, even if one has climbed past it, is still there in the equation, has to be. It is a potential escape, so will embolden one to approach it--even if you have no intention of clipping it. It will be a little harder to leave it behind. It will cloud the mind, add distracting thoughts. It is a lifeline that one can climb back down to and grab/clip if things go badly awry in the next bodylength or two. It's a way out, an escape, just as the tunnel on the Eiger is a potential escape.
And thanks, to the other Dingus, for provoking rgold into writing such a beautifully written manifesto.
|
|
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 01:56pm PT
|
that yes, some climbers, on some climbs, on some days, are not allowed by nature [?] to ascend the section of rock in question
The entire craft of trad climbing involves the climbers willingness and ability to deal with what nature has offered, without modifying the medium to suit the needs of this or that particular climber's perception of what constitutes "notable risk"
OK. Clear position, Rich. Well said. We differ, but in my day I was more of a boulderer and solo climber - a rock gymnast - and don't have so much invested in the traditional form of rock climbing. This is a significant issue for you and it isn't for me. (But isn't placing a single bolt on any climb a modification of the medium? . . . Reductio ad absurdem, as you observed.)
Now let's talk about the path that espouses allowing those who detect "notable risk" to place as many bolts as needed to eliminated that perceived risk
My comments were focused on this single bolt situation. You are using a debating tactic to extend my position to lengths I would never advocate. (reductio ad absurdem ?) But that's OK. Makes this thread entertaining. It does seem to energize people!
That's it for me. Said my piece and stepped on some toes! Sorry about that.
|
|
Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
|
Does clipping a 35 year old bolt even count as "protection"? Seems almost as becky as the original lead sans bolt since it will probably rip during any fall.
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
|
How can climbs be a non-renewable resource if climbers CREATE the routes?
Plenty of climbers, and lots of creativity there.
Of course, if the routes are DISCOVERED, then thats another matter, but it means that a route ISN'T an act of a climbers creation, its an act of discovery, and we need to behave far differently towards them routes in our ethics than we have been.
And it means that whole thing about the FA having control until they die is bullsh#t.
I agree with this.
I clipped those bolts on Superpin a couple times.
35 years with it in place.....35 years. And now someone decides it should go? Does Henry own that rock? I didnt think so. At what point does a route pass from "FA ownership" to general climbing population ownership?
Think about the Free Nose. It sports a CHIPPED traverse. Why arent the ethics cops out in force on that one? Seems to me that the ethics cops outgh to be berating the few who have "freeed" the Nose that they didnt really free it. Yeah, you got it right, we climbers tend to fold our ethics up like a house of cards to suit our own interests.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 05:26pm PT
|
Nice!
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 05:57pm PT
|
You sayin' its ok to yell "fire" in a crowded theater?
Ha ha...
|
|
flyingkiwi1
Trad climber
Seattle WA
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2011 - 06:10pm PT
|
When it comes to bolt-chopping literature, I thought I had read enough for one lifetime. Thanks for proving me wrong.
When someone in whom the spirit of climbing lives takes the time to write thoughtfully about what that spirit means to them, I'm happy to read, no matter the age of the author. Oftentimes the guys who have the longest reflections seem to put in more time thinking about what they write. So be it.
Keep thinking and writing yall!
Ian
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!