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Gilwad
climber
Frozen In Somewhere
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Aug 21, 2011 - 04:09pm PT
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I hope we're all in agreement that shooting a bear when it's charging at you is entirely appropriate. To put four shots into the head while it's coming toward you is good shooting, and I'm glad Cragman is a good shot. I'll let the experts I've worked with decide if it's a "bluff" charge or not; me, I'm shooting too if I have a firearm at hand.
I could care less that Cragman's a Christian or believes in flying saucers or whatever, it's his thing, carry on. His answers to my questions have been sincere. To those who are attacking his actions step back a little, he did what he did and the "why" is interesting and maybe useful to all of us.
The thought I have is that when we're armed we have to continue to think and react appropriately to situations, and not expect to resolve them with our firearm... Cragman says there is no way he would have gone out there to make sure the bear was gone if he wasn't armed. He made a decision to do so because he was armed. Was that a good decision? If he were not as good of a shot, if the bear were a bit closer, like bumping into him close, or any number of other factors then the outcome might not have been really bad. Having a firearm in hand effected his decision making; did the resulting decision unnecessarily jeopardize his own safety? It looks to me like it did. I'm genuinely interested in this subject as I'm walking around in the woods with a rifle a lot, and have noticed this effecting my own decision making in not the best ways...
It's done, the bear was dead already due to the behaviour of the humans, so the death was inevitable unless the humans in the area changed. My thought is that maybe that death could have come with a rifle or shotgun slug at more than a few meters distance, and put Cragman at far less risk. Something to think about, and I'm glad Cragman posted here. No sympathy to anyone who wants to just hate on the guy for killing a bear, hate on the people who turned that bear into what it was. And I don't follow this site closely enough to have a history with Cragman, he's been decent in his responses to me so gets my respect.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 21, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
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I agree that the bear was doomed, whether it was Dean who shot it, or a police officer. Without someone around like the guy in Mammoth, bears aren't going to change their bad habits. Instead those bad habits get worse and worse. I hope someone finds that documentary on the bear guy in Mammoth. That is worth watching. He has most of the bears trained, but he did have to put one bear down. Some are just too aggressive.
I have been wondering the same thing as Gilwad. Dean has already admitted that he wouldn't have gone outside if he wasn't armed. Thats interesting to me, because I did go outside recently, unarmed, when a bear was trying to break into my house. We had a bear recently break into houses here in Wawona. After being harassed for a few weeks, it left Wawona and went back where it came from, which was Mammoth. That bear tried to break into my house one night. I woke up and heard it and immediately believed it was the bear. I yelled, and the noise stopped. Then I went outside to investigate. I was careful and only poked my head around the corner to look. The bear was about 10 feet away and I yelled at it. It started walking away and I yelled again and then pegged it on the rump with a rock, to discourage it from coming back. If it had charged, I would have run back into my house. My door was only 5 feet away up 4 steps, plus the bear would have had to turn a corner, so I believed that I was safe enough.
I have had multiple encounters with bears here in the park. Two bluff charges and multiple other encounters.
One time a bear walked over me trying to get to my pack while I was sleeping. I woke up and realized it was standing right over me. Another time I bumped into a bear while walking home. Both of us were startled. I was walking home one night, creeping along trying to stay on the road, because it was pitch black and there was no moon and I didn't have a flashlight. I bumped into something that was about waste high and was furry. We both startled and it ran off. When it got out from under the trees and into the starlight, I could see that it was a bear.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 21, 2011 - 05:24pm PT
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Are you sure it was a bear? Out of bounds campers are hairy and smell too.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 21, 2011 - 06:33pm PT
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IT WOULD HAVE BUSTED INTO SOMEONE ELSE'S PLACE,
Yep, and eventually someone would have to shoot it. Either a cop, or a citizen. Bears don't unlearn bad habits unless there is someone diligent, like the guy in Mammoth. Plus they usually have to be caught fairly early in the process, before a really bad habit forms. At least that is my understanding.
Are you sure it was a bear? Out of bounds campers are hairy and smell too.
hahaha.. well, I did wake up hearing this scratching sound. I looked up and couldn't see the stars and finally woke up enough to realize something was standing right on top of me. Eventually it finished sniffing through my pack and it walked off. I had left the zippers open for just that reason. Once it was about 20 feet away I spotlighted it with a flashlight. So yep, I know it was a bear. My partner never woke up and didn't believe me until I showed him the tracks.
Well know bear territory, the grand canyon of the Tuolumne.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 21, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
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east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Aug 21, 2011 - 06:47pm PT
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I can not blame Crag for his actions. We live in Bear country and the people who feed these animals and continue to let their trash be accesible to bears should be liable. I do think that throphy photos on the internet are bad style and does not express the respect the animal ruined by people deserves. Crag was right in protecting his family, a wild animal can not be predicted especially one poisoned by Human contact. Very sad indeed. Paul Linaweaver
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 21, 2011 - 06:52pm PT
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Come on Apogee. Stop this business. Dean isn't perfect, but I don't know anyone who is. I know I'm not. Are you?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 21, 2011 - 06:58pm PT
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If he intended it as a trophy photo he would have given it the classic head-hold looking into the camera after first ditching the plaid pajamas for khakis and wellingtons.
Sheesh!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 21, 2011 - 06:58pm PT
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Had bears in my house more than once. Good stories but not time to write them now
All bears are large with they are in your house!
peace
karl
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OR
Trad climber
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Aug 21, 2011 - 06:59pm PT
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Crag, you posted a TR about killing a bear at 3 am in the morning with a photo of you flashing your .40 over the dead bears body and you think people that dont agree with your decision are Pinheads?
Please! I have no axe here but what did you expect? Bears break into homes all the time and they rarely get " 4 in the head and one in the ass". There are officals whose job is to deal with these issues. You mentioned that you were carrying the weapon in the photo because these animals tend to run in groups..... really?.wow, I laughed. I am a 30 year gun owner and hunter so save the pinhead uninformed city folk line.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 21, 2011 - 07:02pm PT
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You guys should understand that apogee feels a great deal of empathy for the unfortunate bruin. You would too if you were busted for a roach and, while you were inside, were forced to take four in the head and one in the ass.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Aug 21, 2011 - 07:10pm PT
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Feeding trolls is about the same as feeding wild bears.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Aug 21, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
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Sounds as though the California Department of Wildlife, or Fish and Game needs to address the population problem by live trapping some of these problem carnivores and shipping their a$$es off to parts far, far away! Either that or allow legal hunting in order to get the populations under control.
I can imagine my own reaction to having my windows broken in and the house trashed and $hit upon during the night. It would not be pretty!
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apogee
climber
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Aug 21, 2011 - 07:16pm PT
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Worth re-posting, from upthread:
"If it broke your heart to kill that thing you would'nt be posing for photos with the bear and your gun. and then posting them here."
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 21, 2011 - 07:36pm PT
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Sounds as though the California Department of Wildlife, or Fish and Game needs to address the population problem by live trapping some of these problem carnivores and shipping their a$$es off to parts far, far away! Either that or allow legal hunting in order to get the populations under control.
Perhaps someone can comment on the broader issues. IIRC, there has been a steady decline in hunting in the US (and Canada) over the last decades, even allowing that about 50% of all animals that are shot are poached.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 21, 2011 - 07:50pm PT
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Not in Idaho,...
(a thread about shooting an animal in Kalifornia with 200 posts and no Rox? WTF?)
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OR
Trad climber
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Aug 21, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
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Yeah, I think that attitude somehow points the way to an even bigger government.
High Fruc..your preaching to the choir here. Don't mistake me for a PETA nut or pro big Gov! I took issue with the Glen Beck "Pinhead" reference to anyone that does not like Crag's post. Post killing a bear on a climbing forum and you should expect some responses that may not be plaased with said post.
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OR
Trad climber
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Aug 21, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
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oops, Pinhead my be an O'Rielly thing
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apogee
climber
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Aug 21, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
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More truth^^^
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Aug 21, 2011 - 08:12pm PT
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Cragman posted up re: a depradation permit. This may be the direct answer to problem bears. The offending animals alone need be removed. I'm not simply advocating a widespread slaughter of non-offenders. Repeat offenders need to be removed. Somehow. Scaring them off (over to Apogee's house) doesn't seem to work.
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