Norway tragedy...

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jstan

climber

Jul 25, 2011 - 03:06pm PT

Systems of justice using juries populated by citizens work only if the citizenry respects the need for calm application of reason. Justice by lynch mob is the alternative.

As America wends its way into third world status, the choice as to which of these worlds we want to live in, will have to be made.

dirtbag

climber

Jul 25, 2011 - 04:06pm PT

Glenn Beck:

Beck said that the Labour party youth camp on the island, where 68 people were murdered, bore "disturbing" similarities to the Nazi party's notorious juvenile wing.

Beck, a multimillionaire darling of the Tea Party movement, said on his nationally-syndicated radio show: "There was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler youth. I mean, who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8660986/Glenn-Beck-compares-Norways-dead-teenagers-to-Hitler-youth.html

John Moosie

climber

Beautiful California

Jul 25, 2011 - 04:25pm PT

Have they no shame???

No.. they don't. They think shame is for the weak and they pride themselves on having no shame. They also believe that the ends justifies the means, so they will use any tool to win. Standing up to them is not easy.

Edit: to be clear, I was speaking about people like Glenn Beck.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Jul 25, 2011 - 04:29pm PT

Is there no end to the dirt sick voices of the far right can forge in their disgusting brains and blurt out?
Have they no shame???

the incident in Norway is not a left-wing, right wing deal. anyone portraying it as such is as whacked out as the guilty whacked out SOB who killed innocents.

dirtbag

climber

Jul 25, 2011 - 05:03pm PT

Yep Dr. F, it's nice to think that both sides are equally to blame, but that usually isn't true.

Anyway, this is so sad.

dirtbag

climber

Jul 25, 2011 - 05:07pm PT

Just for the record, Glen beck is NOT a Christian.

That's not what Beck says.

cleo

Social climber

Berkeley, CA

Jul 25, 2011 - 05:28pm PT

What a bunch of stupid comments in this thread. If you all want to bash each other, bash religion, discuss f*ckheads like Glenn Beck, whatever, you should go do it in one of the polidiot threads.

Can we start a new thread for expressing condolences to Norway? I'd support nuking this thread.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jul 25, 2011 - 05:51pm PT

I quite agree with Lolli - except I may be much angrier than her. It is abundantly clear that the murderer was a right-wing, nihilist, racist, inspired by but without known direct association with such groups and individuals in other countries, including in the USA. He also claims to be a "Christian", as right-wingers elsewhere often do. The details to be sorted out, but the picture is clear. No pretending otherwise. He will be dealt with in the context of Norwegian society, culture and justice.

It's easy to understand how Erik reacted as he did to what some have posted here.

Addressing the congregation at Oslo cathedral, Jens Stoltenberg, Norway's prime minister, rejected the idea that Norway will become, like Britain and America, a more restricted and frightened society. "I am proud to live in a country that has managed to stand firm," he said. "I am impressed over how much dignity, care and strength we have. We are a small country but we are a proud people. We are still shaken, but we will never give up our values. Our answer is more democracy and openness, never naivete."

If only those here could speak with similar wisdom and forebearance, and resist importing their personal beliefs and behaviours into the discussion. I expect no better of Fattrad, Dr. F, skipt and jghedge, but some others know better. Don't let those fools bait you.

There have been no significant calls in Norway for restoration of capital punishment. There is embarrassment that the attack was by a native Norwegian, although whether the police had or should have had any foreknowledge of Breivik and his plans is unknown. It seems likely that there will be a parliamentary (Storting) enquiry into what happened, and right-wing extremism.

As for Glenn Beck - well, if he flew to Norway, he would probably be arrested on arrival in Oslo.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jul 25, 2011 - 06:08pm PT

Well I hate to tell you this guys but the US no longer has the highest standard of living in the world.
For one thing dozens of countries educate their children better.

We are well on our way to third world status, and when our currency is worthless lets see what happens to our hollow empire.

Ksolem

Trad climber

Monrovia, California

Jul 25, 2011 - 06:16pm PT

is the hatefilled violent-loving xenophobic and misanthropic filth that the right winger extremists spew out into the world.

Lolli I took the liberty of making a small edit...

A lot of unbridled hate and anger hear. Understandably.

Please though, don't equate a sane person who perhaps has political or social views to the right of yours with a mass murdering extremist monster.

Perhaps one thing we can all agree on is that extremism generally does not work out well, especially when mixed with insanity.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Jul 25, 2011 - 06:23pm PT

Not a right wing/left wing deal, huh? Forget it. No way there'll be an acceptance of changing this to a lone lunatic, acting on his own.
Had it been a muslim fundamentalist instead of a right wing fundamentalist, you'd sure be fast to blame entire religions.

read what ksolem said.....

if it were a muslim there is no way i would denounce an entire religion which is why you should not denounce right wingers....pathetic.

if he were black would you then denounce all blacks?

this thread should be nuked, while there are some good things on here it is overshadowed by emotional people wishing to cram their views of the world down others...isnt that what the whackjob was all about? think about it.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jul 25, 2011 - 07:03pm PT

is the hatefilled violent-loving xenophobic and misanthropic filth that the right winger extremists spew out into the world.

I beg to differ. It's a continuum of hate and American conservatives have employed it reliably and extensively over the past fifty years. Campaigns against blacks, homosexuals, and latinos by way of 'immigration' - all carefully worded and 'coded' - have been the mainstay strategy of all recent national republican campaigns and remain so today. Current republican campaign strategies are all based upon on and designed to stir indignation and rage against 'them'. It is the very essence of hate, bigotry, and racism regardless of how carefully crafted.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jul 25, 2011 - 07:13pm PT

Vi Har Valgt å Besvare Grusomhet med Nærhet

"We Have Chosen to Reply to Cruelness with Nearness/Neighbourliness"

The headline today in Norway's main newspaper, and the opening line of the crown prince's speech today. About 150,000 attended the minute of silence in downtown Oslo today, in person - about 1/4 of the population of the area. Crown Prince Håkon Magnus and Princess Martha Louise attended.

http://www.aftenposten.no/

There are apparently books of condolence at all Norwegian embassies and consulates world-wide, which are open to the public for several hours each day. I can't find anything more on the internet, apart from the "Light a Candle" site on FaceBook - there must be something.

lovegasoline: Try to look at what happened from the perspective of Norway and Norwegians, not that of the US. I appreciate that it may be difficult, but it's a very different context. Might have beens and speculation are of little help. FYI, the rate of long gun ownership in Norway is quite high, and given compulsory military service, many are trained in their use. Whether the police or military might have gotten to Utøya earlier will come out in the judicial enquiry. There is no chance of Norway allowing easy access to handguns, and given that its overall rate of violent crime is a fraction of that of the US, it's obvious why.

You don't want to know Norway's reaction to Fox News' coverage of the events.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jul 25, 2011 - 07:25pm PT

What a crock of bullsh#t. Bush and McCain put forward honest immigration legislation. The evil one

No, it's not and you steadily push hate-based threads here on ST day in, day out. You should reconsider as it's tracts such as yours that this guy fed on.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jul 25, 2011 - 07:29pm PT

The Norwegian government website is at: http://www.regjeringen.no/en.html

It includes things like the address yesterday by Prime Minister Stoltenberg: http://www.regjeringen.no/en/dep/smk/Whats-new/Speeches-and-articles/statsministeren/statsminister_jens_stoltenberg/2011/address-by-prime-minister-in-oslo-cathed.html?id=651789

The Norwegian government's website in the USA is at http://www.norway.org/ Also http://www.norway.org/News_and_events/top-stories/Signing-of-Book-of-Condolences/ The embassy and consulates are in Washington, D.C., New York City, Houston, and San Francisco. There is an on-line condolences thingie on the Aftenposten website.

King Harald's speech: http://www.kongehuset.no/c27262/nyhet/vis.html?tid=92959

(His grandfather was King Haakon VII, who led Norway through World War II. The royal family is immensely popular.)

[All sites helpfully in English also.]

Jeff, Joseph: Please take it somewhere else.

QITNL: I'm about 1/2 Norwegian by ancestry, and have spent some time there in school, climbing, visiting cousins and friends, and teaching climbing. Probably over a half year total. I also speak Norwegian, though not fluently.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jul 25, 2011 - 07:47pm PT

King Harald's speech, from Saturday:

Norway has been struck by a national tragedy. The kind of calamity that we hoped would never happen here has somehow taken place.

At Sundvolden today we met young people and their families who shared with us their gruesome stories. They have lived through a day that is beyond all comprehension. Our thoughts and deepest sympathy go out to all of those afflicted by the events in Oslo and on Utøya.

The police, rescue workers, health personnel and volunteers have worked tirelessly and heroically to save lives, in some cases at risk to their own. All of us are affected by the catastrophe that has swept over us, and we watch in disbelief as the death toll continues to rise.

In the midst of all the anguish and chaos, the Prime Minister, the Government and the ministries have responded to the situation with exceptional fortitude and resolve.

Both as individuals and as a nation it will take us a long time to digest and work our way through what we have witnessed, our grief and our feelings. We will need each other in this process. Throughout the length and breadth of our country, there are people who have lost someone they loved. Many of our children and young people are afraid today. We must make every effort to reassure them. Many will want to be together, while others will need space for quiet reflection. It is comforting that the country’s churches are open for anyone who wishes to light a candle and seeks a place to be. It is also helpful that the local authorities and volunteer organisations are providing arenas for those who feel a need to be with others.

There is still much we do not know about the background for yesterday’s atrocities, and it is essential that we let the responsible authorities continue their work to bring clarity to the situation. Some things we do know, however: the acts in Oslo and on Utøya are an attack on the Norwegian society that we hold so dear. And they represent an assault upon the very heart of Norwegian democracy.

It is when our nation is put to the test that the true strength, solidarity and courage of the Norwegian people come to the fore. We stand united behind our values.

I firmly believe that freedom is stronger than fear.

I firmly believe in an open Norwegian democracy and society.

I firmly believe that we will uphold our ability to live freely and securely in our own country.

Hawkeye

climber

State of Mine

Jul 25, 2011 - 08:04pm PT

lovegas is a class act compared to some on here.

this incident as riley said in a different thread has changed the psyche in norway. i am hopeful that they will do better than we have since 911...

zeta

Trad climber

Berkeley

Jul 25, 2011 - 08:13pm PT

I finally heard from my Norwegian friend who works in a gov't building downtown. She's ok--thankfully!--but I thought it was interesting what she wrote me:

"I was out of town when the bomb went off. It went off close to where I work and walk everyday, but our office is ok. As far as I know my coworkers are ok. I am not totally informed about people in the Ministries. It is a tragedy for our country and Oslo. It is a before and after and it will change us. But I think to the better. Probably we will be even more open than before. Still, security will be even more important. Our city has changed and I wonder how it will be to get back"

It's interesting that she wrote that life will be more 'open' even as they add much more security.. I'm sure it will radically change life there for Norwegians. It's a very sad tragedy...