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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Jul 15, 2007 - 08:46pm PT
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Tom,
I built my own set up fixture. It is somewhat similiar to Walts. The fixture gets clamped vertically in a mill vise. The vise gets angled to create the angle on the beak.
The way I "read" the beak was that it had milling marks not grinding marks. IMHO sanding would not be accurate enough and grinding is to tedious.
I totally agree about owning your own tooling. I worked for a man who had had dies made and then the company went under and he couldn't get his dies. Sucked to have paid for them and then couldn't use them. After that he had companies send the dies to us after they used them. We would ship them back to get our parts made and the die would come back with the finished parts.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jul 16, 2007 - 12:45am PT
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TMoses, that new handle looks like it's about the same as the A5 next to it. When you install the handle, quite a bit will stick up out of the head. After driving the head on securely, you cut the excess handle off and install the wedge(s), if they're used. The angle of the handle to match the head isn't going to be an issue. You slice off the excess handle flush with the head.
Email me about that A5 head that I have. I don't want it mounted to a handle, yet. It needs to be heat-treated.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2007 - 04:35am PT
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Theron, thanks for posting those pics. And for the status report. I chopped up your photo and it looks like the handle is a tad long and has a different base profile as you said before. We can do another round with Lewis and O.P.Link Handle or just go with this. I think John recalled it being a custom order we'd have to recreate whereas Lewis sounds like he has these in stock. Thoughts on if we should keep after getting the exact handle...?
And in the interim both Theron and I have each acquired an A5 hammer and both agree we think it is the business and we should skip the mods and alternatives and just take the decision to go with John's basically flawless design and get on with it.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 16, 2007 - 11:02am PT
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JH, looks like this project is falling on your shoulders more than just being a group collaboration.
Assuming that someone like Russ doesn't want the responsibility of building the worlds best hammer and reaping the prestige and massive amount of financial rewards sure to follow (*cough* cough*) , if I can be of any small or large assistance in helping to make this project happen, you have but to ask.
Warm regards;
Bill
P.S. John, great pics, proving only once again that you still obviously rule.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2007 - 12:17pm PT
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Bill,
Thanks for the offer of help!
The back and forth has been slow, but we're slowly making our way through the process. For the longest time it was legal concerns, of late trying to pin down the right handle, and shortly I think we'll be on to just getting them done. Help will certainly welcome once we start rolling on it. Probably need to requote the heads, figure out who is going to drill the funk holes, line up heat treatment, get the tangs made up, and sort out the assembly. Probably start that planning process fairly soon. Will keep everyone informed.
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Wade Icey
Big Wall climber
Indian Caves, CA
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Jul 16, 2007 - 01:19pm PT
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Assuming that someone like Russ doesn't want the responsibility....
Joseph, you can relax and work on your slacklining now. Russ is gonna work straight through in a push to build the FISH/A5 Hammer. Dream come true. Look for a naming contest soon.
cheers,
Wade
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2007 - 01:54pm PT
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Wade, that would work for me, but it probably would be a good idea to check with Conrad before anyone tried to proceed with a commercial version...
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 16, 2007 - 07:10pm PT
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I doubt Fish will call it an A5 hammer.
More like a "Fish Wall Wanger" or a "Fammer".
A forged head hammer on the A5 design, probably heads forged in China, handles from Tennessee of "Old Hickory" and assembled by dirt bagger gnomes in some Mexican sweatshoppe.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2007 - 07:22pm PT
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Using secret alien technologies...
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Jul 17, 2007 - 01:58am PT
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The alien technology isn't working to well right now. Their brazes are cold.
Anyway, back on topic.
Tom,
Yeah that is what I came to realize last Thursday when I really spent some time studying all the parts. Thanks for the confirmation. Will email you after posting this.
Joseph has brought to light one of my other concerns. The new handle is about a half an inch taller than the A5. Solutions I see would be to use shorter tangs, get a custom handle, or use a wedge in the top and locating the head a half an inch higher on the shaft. I think that I need to contact Lewis and talk handles again. I would love to see as exact a copy of the original handle as possible. I think that by lengthening the shaft the "feel" and balance would change.
Couch,
Joseph has always been in the lead. We just chime in with opinions and advice. Sometimes we even get something done instead of just flappin' our gums. I think Fish is to busy climbing or getting a haircut or making movies of his extraordinary toes to do the A5 Hammers.;)
Theron
Couch Edit: The way the Chinesse are screwin' stuff up right now I wouldn't buy a A5 Hammer from there. Their metal is not a good a quality as our domestic steel. Trust me I know. I don't by import metal anymore, period. Mexican sweatshops on the other hand are improving drasticly.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2007 - 02:02am PT
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I'll do another go around with Lewis on the handles and see what it yields - I suspect we'll have to go with a custom order but that's ok as well. I really am not inclined to mess with the formula now that I've swung one...
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jul 17, 2007 - 06:37am PT
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I have a handle from a c. 1974 Chouinard ice hammer that was pulled out and replaced. Oddly enough, it fits the A5 head perfectly. It seems a bit short, only 11-5/8" long.
The Chouinard handle has a rectangular, non-tapered tenon that engages the head. There is no slot or wooden wedge. It has a metal wedge that was probably placed by me as the head loosened over the years.
The wide faces of the tenon have 1/8" rabbets, against which the head seats. The two narrow faces extend down far enough to fully engage the tangs.
The two narrow faces that engage the tangs look like they could be formed on a sander. They extend down to where the rounded neck is thin, providing a relief zone for the edge of the belt or disk.
It looks like the tenon's rabbets could be cut on a table saw, with two blades separated by a spacer. The space between the teeth would leave the 3/4" width of the tenon. A simple jig to hold the handle vertically stable, and to ride against the rip fence without rotating, could be used to accurately cut the tenon. The previously sanded narrow flat faces could be used to locate the handle in the jig.
An existing, stock replacement handle could be modified in this manner. Furthermore, an existing handle could have the tip cut off, to eliminate the undesirable wedge slot.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2007 - 02:16pm PT
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Tom, once again great photos and analysis. The jig / split blade idea is a good one. As for 'stock' handles, the ones Lewis sent to Theron appear to be the closest stock handles avialable (after a second attempt to find the old ones). The length issue appears to be an elongated neck as opposed to too much top.
And I'd still hold off on considering the wedge slot undesirable. As the handle manufacturer, Lewis, is pretty much turning up his nose on forgoing the slot as an inferior method of wedging. His position is: in order to get a pressure on all sides, really secure the head, and prevent the handle from splitting you should use both the wood and metal wedges. Given some folks have added nails to the heads to retighten them Lewis' point should be given a little thought is my feeling - the man does know his handles.
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Jul 17, 2007 - 02:20pm PT
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Are you saying he has a handle on the situation?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jul 17, 2007 - 05:38pm PT
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I think that for a tapered handle hole, like for a framing hammer or an axe, the taper makes sense. The handle slips in easily, then flares out at the top, to completely fill the hole. The flare can't pull back through the tapered hole and the head is secure from coming off. It's locked in the other direction by being driven down, to custom cut it's own shoulder rabbets into the wood. You stick the head on, and slam the handle vertically onto a rigid surface until the head won't move down any more. Then pound in the wedges and cut the excess off. All of that makes sense, especially for a mass-produced handle that has rather loose dimensional tolerances.
On the other hand, if the hole isn't tapered (I'll go measure my A5 head and report back) then either A) the tenon has to be undersized or tapered, or B) there is no way in hell you are going to drive the wooden wedge in. The scientists call this "conservation of mass".
Also, any wedge slot would have a finite kerf (a laser could reduce it to 0.005", but I doubt that's a solution) which then leaves a void below the tip of the wedge. Typically, when a wooden wedge is driven in, it locks up and breaks off well before it bottoms out, leaving an even bigger void below it. If the handle fits snugly in an untapered hole, 90% of the void is going to remain below the wedge.
I won't bore you with the proof of my dementhesis regarding
space ---> time ---> entropy ---> degradation
but, will simply state that the presence of the void implies lowered reliability.
The slot itself acts as a stress concentrator, not something you typically want in a reliable product. It also presents a vibrational anomaly, producing a dissonant tone, of sorts, to the finished product, like a bell with a crack in it.
I'm neither a winter climber nor an expert on ice mechanics, but it seems to me that if the handle has a void that water can get into and freeze, it could be real trouble. How could the water get into the slot in the first place? Go ask those Okie Idiots about their 50-year old pristine Belvedere automobile they recently pulled from a "hermetic sarcophagus" buried in the Tulsa courthouse lawn.
If the tolerance of the hole in the head is maintained (check: the forging die forms the hole consistently) and the tolerance of the tenon can be maintained (check: proper shop procedure) there is no reason at all the handle can't have a tight fit in the head. Without actually trying it, a 0.015"-0.025" interference fit sounds about right. The straps are what secure the head from sliding off. The tenon's rabbets secure it in the other direction.
At some point, an Open Source project needs to go back to the Real Source, and remember that Chouinard learned his craft from a Swiss blacksmith, some guy called "Salathe". (Yes, I've seen photo's of the Salathe hammer, and I know it looks like something he got at the hardware store and modified. And probably comprised wood and metal wedges. That's not the point.) The point is that Chouinard and Middendorf, through real-time experience, decided that it was better to use a solid tenon and straps, not a slot and wedges.
How many desperate walls has your hammer handle salesman done?
EDIT: I forgot to mention that shrinkage of the handle over time is one of the main reasons you borrow the next guy's framing hammer to drive #8 sinkers into your own. Improperly kiln-dried material is to blame. Furthermore, I'd be surprised to learn that the handle manufacturers do a post-op kilning procedure to really ensure the strength and stability of their product.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2007 - 05:57pm PT
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Tom, with all due respect to you, Yvonne, and John - Lewis isn't a handle salesman - he's an engineer and the plant manager of the plant that's been making handles for endless applications for over a century. Has he done a wall? Unlikely, but he does have an A5 hammer sitting on his desk so is familiar with both the engineering and the hammer itself even if he hasn't been on a wall.
P.S. Are you volunteering to take this damn handle business off Theron and my hands...? We'd sure appreciate it and you seem to be showing a great affinity towards handles. I'd be happy to forward you all of Lewis' contact info...
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Jul 17, 2007 - 08:45pm PT
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Hmmm.... rough day at work?
I think Tom is concerned that we get a high quality Hammer is all. Valid input for the Open Source.
He has nicely offered to loan me his head to fit. He is definitely helping in the project already. Thanks.
Theron
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jul 17, 2007 - 10:40pm PT
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Healyje, does your hammer handle engineer know that the hole in the A5 head is not tapered?
I have measured the A5 head's hole, and there is no appreciable taper. It is rectilinear to within less than 0.010", measured between any two opposite face points anywhere in the hole.
For the record, the hole is nominally 0.630" x 1.25". The corners have roughly 1/16" radii.
EDIT: I looked at the blueprint that John posted, and can see that the specs for the hole call for no taper, except for leading and trailing transitional regions. The length of the straight portion on the head I have seems to be longer than that shown on the drawing (which specifies a minimum straight section, not a maximum).
My "theory" that a rectangular tenon fitting snugly in a rectangular hole does not allow a wooden wedge to be driven in comes from experience. However, common sense also indicates that in order for the wedge to fully enter the slot, there must be clearance somewhere for the halves of the handle tenon to move into.
EDIT: This is the drawing sent by Lewis. Notice that the hammer hole shows a taper, and that after driving the wedges, the handle fills it.
When I replaced the handle on my Chouinard ice hammer (modified into a lightweight wall hammer) I took a handle I got at a Lowe's hardware store and shaped a rectangular tenon. I then inserted it into the hammer head and tried to place the wooden wedge, which moved in about 1/8", locked up and snapped off. The metal wedge went in OK, by beating the snot out of it.
And now?
The handle feels loose and rattly in the head, despite seeming to fit fairly tight before the wedge was driven. I think it's due to the aforementioned vibrational anomaly. That empty void essentially ensures that there will always be relative motion between the handle and the head.
So, I have to replace that handle, again. And this time I will not make the mistake of having a slot and wedges.
I think that the key to the stock handle replacement riddle is to use a replacement handle for a claw hammer, not a framing hammer. I have a claw hammer whose handle is 13 inches long, and does not have the long neck characteristic of framing hammers. For comparison, I have both 15 and 17 inch long framing hammer handles.
And FWIW, I have a 15 inch handle on my sub-sized wall hammer and it seems to be quite useful that way. For pounding pins in, or cleaning them, I hold the hammer about 2/3 of the way down from the head. This is very close to the center of percussion, or "sweet spot" with minimal vibration transmitted to my hand. Whether or not the handle is so long to interfere with freeclimbing is wholly unknown, seeing as how I am so pathetically weak, I am on record as aiding, with big cams, up the Hollow Flake crack.
Oh, and for taping rivet hangers or hooks onto the extra-long hammer, to cheat past moves? Priceless.
EDIT: Here are a claw hammmer, rather large framing hammer and my wall hammer. Notice that the the claw hammer handle doesn't have a long neck, like the other two.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jul 17, 2007 - 10:41pm PT
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I can't handle any more of this.
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Jul 18, 2007 - 12:41pm PT
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"YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"
And:
I am tending to agree with what Tom said about the non taper thingy. Tom, have you brought that issue up with Lewis?
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