Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 10:16pm PT
|
Phil - I think Kush is on the blog site more than here. So you could ask him directly and he'll give you his honest assessment. I'm sure there are things he just can't tell you though (memory lost during fall/after fall). He's a solid individual who would engage in a respectful conversation if you want. Perhaps you could ask him via an email from here on supertopo.
Luck was on his side. He knows it, we all know it. And thank goodness for all the times luck was on my side in life too. Same for everyone here.
|
|
Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
|
|
|
May 29, 2011 - 03:52am PT
|
Thanks for the detailed report Kush. Very glad you are okay. Hope that you keep us informed of your recovery and progress.
I also hope that you will report further if you find out what happened to your lead protection. You said that the pieces you placed were not hanging on the rope when you came to rest directly below Steve, your belayer. Very puzzling. Does it make you wonder if you actually clipped the rope into them? Hope Petch is able to shed some light on this.
|
|
Phil Olinick
Boulder climber
There
|
|
|
May 29, 2011 - 05:00am PT
|
**First, I want to thank those of you who made such outrageously erroneous statements regarding climbing safety, sometimes in response to my impatient, aggressive posts (which embarrass me, but so be it).
There have been some false statements about climbing safety made in this thread, and elsewhere. This kind of disinformation has contributed to if not caused climbing accidents. Human life has been lost. People have been seriously injured. Medical and other bills have been incurred. Taxpayer money has been spent on federal and local rescue efforts, which could have been avoided.
If they do not investigate the origins of the disinformation about climbing safety, law enforcement agencies and prosecutors would be doing taxpayers an injustice, and indirectly contributing to the continued loss of life and injuries among climbers.
I recommend that the appropriate law enforcement agencies contact Yosemite Search and Rescue (YOSAR) and request a representative list of erroneous statements about climbing safety, which could be published on this website and used as a basis for criminal and civil investigations.
If anyone making these false statements has a conflict of interest due to personal profit (e.g., paid bloggers) then that too should be investigated.
There are so many things today now damaged by intentional disinformation. The affront to climbing is of particular interest, because knowledgable climbers can link the facts to the dead bodies. A known minority of climbers today understand those facts, and we can prove that many deaths and injuries should have been avoided. It's a good fight. Let's take it!
-Phil Olinick www.kornetzky.ch/GodNoSaySo phil@kornetzky.ch**
|
|
BillL
Trad climber
NM
|
|
|
May 29, 2011 - 08:18am PT
|
Interesting ... I imagine that reign of terror twisted and buried a few.
|
|
steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
|
|
|
May 29, 2011 - 08:32am PT
|
I'm glad the climber survived his fall, but all these questions regarding litigation etc. seem out of place.
I've taken countless leader falls and learned from them. The climbing population is increasing and expect more accidents to happen. I've had my share of F.U's and thankfully survived them.
|
|
Phil Olinick
Boulder climber
There
|
|
|
May 29, 2011 - 01:01pm PT
|
I'm still here.
So, you all see no problems, hear no problems...
 the belayer was set for maximum braking assuming a pull from above and suddenly this was the worst position for braking. Takes a little time to react to that.
So, anyone want to let these people give you a belay? One one thousand, two one thousand...oops.
By the way, my email is a mess. Messages sometimes arrive late or not at all, and so forth. If email doesn't work, check the contact link on the website and find me in the telephone book link. That includes a map, should anyone like to drop by. Homberg 329 / CH-9125 Brunnadern / Switzerland www.kornetzky.ch/GodNoSaySo
|
|
Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
|
|
|
May 29, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
|
It occurs to me that perhaps he back clipped every placement.
|
|
OnL4ch
Sport climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
May 29, 2011 - 05:05pm PT
|
Unfortunately, some of us don't have experienced "trad experts" to teach us all the subtleties of safe climbing that they've learned in 15+ years, so what would you have us do, not even try? Guides are EXPENSIVE.
The best we can do is be very studious, take lots of gear on a climb, place it slowly and meticulously based on what we've read in Luebben's books, sift through this angry blather, and hope we're not making fundamental errors based on inexperience.
It's true, the community has become more saturated with gym climbers looking to move outdoors, so perhaps the expertise has been spread thin, but to read many of these discouraging entries it sounds new climbers may as well just forget it all together, which anyone who knows what it's like to love climbing knows is not a possibility. So we'll be out there, teaching our damn selves to the great disdain of all you who were fortunate enough to have proper instruction.
|
|
froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
May 29, 2011 - 05:11pm PT
|
Goodonyou OnL4ch. Ignore the curmudgeons yelling for you to get off their lawn. Most of us did plenty of stupid sh#t in our early days and just got lucky.
|
|
Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
|
|
|
May 29, 2011 - 06:10pm PT
|
Mtnmum - I know Kush and have climbed with him. (And yes I'd have him belay me). He's been climbing many years. Given my personal experience, I'd be shocked if he backclipped every placement. Still, I wasn't there, but it'd be very surprising.
edit: Ron, it could be that Kush could say these exact words: "I too started all by myself and nearly died for it, but i smartened up quickly and practiced from the ground placing everything i could. Never did a lead with anything i had not 'tested.'" (I don't intend to specifically point to you, but this sums up lots of thoughts here).
Kush was lucky and not so lucky this day. Her learned a lot! He without pride pointed out all the dumb decisions that led to a big problem. How many series of dumb decisions has everyone here made, but somehow got to walk away from? I know I've got many in and out of climbing!
Personally I know of more experienced climbers who have seriously injured themselves than inexperienced ones. That's just my experience and of course it is because I know more experienced than unexperienced climbers. The point is that neither group has a corner on the market of eff-ups and injuries. Phil Powers decked a week ago - very experienced climber. Colin decked yesterday off of C'est La Vie in Eldo - very experienced climber...I could name others and we all know many others that have been seriously injured or worse. :(
I too hear a lot of experienced trad climbers that would rather bitch about the new kids who do it all wrong to the point that I don't want to ask their thoughts or get help from them in terms of gear.
|
|
Ashcroft
Trad climber
SLC, UT
|
|
|
May 29, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
|
Those crappy-azz little wire gate biners are a disaster as well.
Can you elaborate about this? I thought wire-gate carabiners were generally at least as strong as solid gates, and less prone to momentarily snapping open when jarred.
|
|
zeta
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
May 29, 2011 - 06:33pm PT
|
Those crappy-azz little wire gate biners are a disaster as well. That stuff is fine for the sport stuff where control and clean routes abound. But the justification of a couple of pounds of saved weight between rope and rack, on trad/regular routes, dont cut much mustard. Next we could talk about modern belay "gadgets" and the replacing of common sense and attention..
are we talking preferences or safety here?
I use wire-gates and don't use gri-gris, but for me, this is more about preference than safety....what matters most is the climber's judgment (and attention) rather than an argument about new vs. older gear
sure, there are many gym folks rushing out to learn trad maybe a bit too fast, but they usually realize pretty quick that they have a lot to learn. I have a friend who leads 11s and 12s in the gym and is just starting to learn trad, so he's taking it slowly, working on 5.6s and 5.7s...he's in no rush to push it and I think he'll be a great trad leader someday...learning trad is one thing, getting comfortable with it is another and takes time!
|
|
BillL
Trad climber
NM
|
|
|
May 29, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
|
So, you all see no problems, hear no problems...
* the belayer was set for maximum braking assuming a pull from above and suddenly this was the worst position for braking. Takes a little time to react to that.
So, anyone want to let these people give you a belay? One one thousand, two one thousand...oops.
You're lost, Phil. The bullet above was purely hypothetical. You've taken it out of context and made it look like that's what happened to Kush and Steve.
I'm not on Super Topo much so mebs I'm off base, but I thought it was that other site that tar'd and feather'd upon the unknown.
Bill L
|
|
steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
|
|
|
May 29, 2011 - 08:22pm PT
|
I get a little tired of "newer" climbers complaining that they haven't got the experience of older climbers. They assume that old trad climbers were tutored by experienced pro's who taught them how to place protection, which back in the earlier days were pitons and nuts.
I basically taught myself aid climbing some 40+ years ago. There were NO books printed on the subject as there are today. I was very mechanically orientated, and made many nuts myself, but there is only one way to learn gear placement skill. Just get out there and practice.
I've had my share of accidents from gear pulling; including zippering an entire A4 pitch - close to 100 ft. fall. I nearly bought it a few years ago when I leaned back on a green alien and it popped on me. I shattered bones in my foot and still limp on occasion.
Many experienced climbers get hurt as well as newbies, as was said by Crimpergirl.
I'm just tired of newbies complaining that it is hard to learn gear placement. At least they have the advantage of volumes of printed matter on the subject which wasn't available when I started climbing.
Just get out there and do it!
|
|
Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
|
|
|
May 29, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
|
Right on SteveA, the whining/complaining isn't restricted to one group either. :)
edit: and glad to hear the 100 footer you took didn't result in more injuries or worse. Sounds like it hurt enough though. :/ I imagine it seemed a long time while falling. *shudder*
|
|
Tahoe climber
climber
Davis these days
|
|
|
May 30, 2011 - 12:12am PT
|
Wire gates are as reliable. Also, a well-captured cam is as reliable as a nut.
TC
|
|
ruppell
climber
|
|
|
May 30, 2011 - 01:49am PT
|
Maybe it's time to start an new thread. The possible titles to follow:
1 I climb 5.11 in the gym how hard can NE Buttress Of Higher Cathedral Spire be?
2 Ouch I just think I broke my helmet in that fall.
3 I'm not an as#@&%e I just play one on supertopo.
4 OK who hid all the important stuff from me.
5 WHY DON'T U JUST SHUT THE F*#K UP.
Sorry I just couldn't help myself with that last one. Voting starts now and after will be followed by a who is right and a who is wrong presentation.
|
|
ruppell
climber
|
|
|
May 30, 2011 - 02:22am PT
|
Rock you are old because you want to come across that way.
And yes you can use wiregates to do all those things.
If you can't use a wiregate to open a beer buy twistoffs.
For the love of dog man.
|
|
Phil Olinick
Boulder climber
There
|
|
|
May 30, 2011 - 03:50am PT
|
Pushing hard to derail the thread from May 29, 2011 - 02:00am PT?
@Rokjox (May 29, 2011 - 03:27pm PT) : By comparison, you're not even dangerous. And I agree that people get upset over the wrong things far too often.
@steveA: On the payroll somewhere these days?
@Goldberg: You must be a dealer.
|
|
ruppell
climber
|
|
|
May 30, 2011 - 03:56am PT
|
Who's dog is that? Keep him far away from the wolves!
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!