Bolting on stance - ground up - leading

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Mungeclimber

Trad climber

the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.

Mar 12, 2013 - 01:03am PT

Highly reputable post right there!

Red Wing

climber

California

Mar 15, 2013 - 02:06pm PT

The story:

I had come off of a heinous injury that shut me down for nearly 2 years. During that time, I didn't expect to ever climb again. With the help of a awesome doc and a small miracle, I healed. I was ravenous.

I climbed this rock route ground up, solo, on a remote unclimbed dome in the beautiful Sierra Nevada. "Steel Pulse" has 17 bolts in 1000' including anchor stations. I originally rated the climb 5.9. After repeating the climb several times to access the huge walls that lay above, 5.10b R/X seems to be less of a dangerous sandbag and more in line with Yosemite/Tuolumne ratings. On subsequent ascents, both my partners declined to lead any of the pitches which leads me to believe it may be harder. Only one quarter incher was drilled using a hook on a microscopic edge. The hook was so tenuous, I had one foot barely weighting the aider, one smearing on pure gold polish. In the photo, my haul bag is visible below. I've also hung unnecessary items from my last quarter incher.

Heads up, I accidentally misquoted the amount of time I spent up there to some folks. It was a three day effort, 2 nights on the wall, not 2 days total.

Since I started climbing, I had great respect for the Ground Up School of thinking. I always thought that establishing a climb in this style was the ultimate connection of, for lack of better words, brain to rock. Hmm, maybe rockfall or cratering is the "ultimate" connection. Nonetheless, I had to slake my thirst for adventure and off I went.

The path on this ever-cresting dome was not clear, and the difference between 5.11 and 5.9 was a microscopic edge on crazy slick polish. Several times I launched off into terrain that did not go and was forced to retreat. Some pitches were so delicate it took me 4-5 hours on the sharp end. One pitch above where this photo was taken, I had broken one of my quarter inch bits, and found that I only had a three eighths, but no bolts to match. Whoops. My stomach dropped and it took a while to mentally prepare for the huge down climb.

On that trip, tapping those few bolts was my steel pulse.

Not a commie or Republican, yet always sunburned,

Yours Truly,

Red Wing

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Mar 15, 2013 - 02:42pm PT

Stance drilling without even a partner!

You must have been hungry for it lad!

I have been through the fire drilling 3/8" holes many, many times and have never resorted to rapping to make the job easier unless I am adding a bolt or two after the FA. Keeps the game simple and satisfying to have a clear position, IMO.

Six 3/8" holes in one day is my record for hard, on stance drilling with Paul Davidson on Let's Make a Deal on What's My Line Dome in the Stronghold.
Big ledge to start the crux pitch on that route and every stance was looking at kissing it if things went wrong!

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Mar 15, 2013 - 03:04pm PT

Hmmm... Who is this red wing doing awesome stuff in the hills and where does he live? Also, look me up if you're short a partner, unless you solo projects by choice
-Daniel

Don Paul

Big Wall climber

Colombia, South America

Mar 15, 2013 - 03:39pm PT

Great work Redwing! You even named it after one of my all time favorite bands.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Mar 15, 2013 - 03:56pm PT

Redwing...

Hmmmm....

Larger wall above....

Hmmmm...

Backcountry....

Red Wing

climber

California

Mar 29, 2013 - 12:05pm PT

Adelaide III 5.11+

A much foreshortened zoom/crop of Kevin yoyo'ed through a beak protected mantel. This guy is the MAN, and I feel that still underrates him.

Why is he so stoked? Look right, the vertical quartz dike is barely visible.

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.

Mar 29, 2013 - 12:42pm PT

QUARTZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do it!!

Where is it?

Who are these heroic figures?

Are they nutz?

o/~ I wear my old dad's clothes, I look incredible
I'm on this big ass hook from that mountain shop down the road
I wear my old dad's clothes, I look incredible
I'm on this big ass hook from that mountain shop down the road
Stance is fuking awesome! o/~

Branscomb

Trad climber

Lander, WY

Mar 29, 2013 - 12:51pm PT

In the 70s and 80s we put up a lot of routes in Cosumnes and Crystal Basin in CA bolting in the lead, 1/4" and then 5/8". We were young and strong but still was sketchy and scary and exhausting, no way around it.

A few years ago a good friend of mine and I did a lot of new routes on the Moonstone in Sweetwater Rocks as well as Rancher Rock out there (near Lander), from the ground up, no previewing.. They were lower angle friction, small hold face routes up to 10b. We put in 3/8" stainless steel (do it right). How we did it, because the pitches were 60m and up to 12 bolts a pitch was had a set of hooks on me belt and a Bosch 24volt and the bolts and extra drills in a small haul bag. I'd hook the bag to the last bolt with a fifi hook and about 25-30 feet of slack line to me. Carefully arrange the rope so I could pull the fifi off the bolt when I got to a position to bolt from. I had a hand drill with a 1/4" bit in it to drill a hole for a pointed Leeper hook if I couldn't stand on anything substantial enough to haul from and couldn't get a bigger hook on an edge. When I got to some sort of stance, I'd set up, haul the bag up and drill that baby home with the Bosch. Worked good for me, but my friend had never done any hooking before (I'd done A3 and A4 hooking in years gone past so I was pretty comfortable with it), so he would defer any pitches that looked like they would need that action to me.

Hand drilling 3/8" and 1/2" holes in granite would be pretty brutal.

Even at that, it's a lot of work. We were putting out two 60m pitches a day and that was good enough.

guyman

Social climber

Moorpark, CA.

Mar 29, 2013 - 02:31pm PT

RedWing.... way to drink the strong stuff.

So you gona tell where these/this climb may be found??

For the last 20 years,Kris S., Rob Brown, Mike Flood, Jeff Lieberman, Erik Ericksson and myself have developed the Rincon. Its only a 2,000 elevation gain in 1.5 miles of hiking with some 4th and 5th class sections to keep the hike interesting.

All of it bolted on lead.... the only way to do it right, if the stone is quality.

But latley... I have sucumed to some rap-bolting. We have this sort of choss pile we have been playing on the last few seasons. Rap bolted the first pitch, cause we needed to clean off large/larger blocks and because we had the cord already hanging, we just TR'ed it till we knew just where the line needed to go then we drilled... pitch two... on good rock so we bolted it from the p2 anchors.

I did grow some hair on the palms of my hands, but Im not blind.... yet.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Mar 29, 2013 - 06:04pm PT

So that shot of me with the bosch hanging off my butt on Mad Man we went back the following week and I replaced a bad pin with a bolt on lead. the pin blew when I hung on it to drill so I had to climb back up and drill from a stance. I pulled the rope and free climbed it for the redpoint. Mad Man 11a with ed esmonds. Isa led it for the 2nd ascent and i got some cool photos.This shot was taken of me hand drilling a 3/8th X3" stainless on Isabella 5.10a Bird mtn VT
The piece by my knee is a real shallow KB that I cleaned as soon as the bolt went in.

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.

Mar 29, 2013 - 07:52pm PT

right on guyman, that means you've done it both ways and can speak intelligently and from experience about the values of both approaches.

Now if only the top downers would do more ground up, the speed at which routes go in would balance out.

guyman

Social climber

Moorpark, CA.

Mar 29, 2013 - 08:06pm PT

Munge...

When we, rap bolted, it took a while. WE eached climbed the route 4 times and spent some time debating just where the bolts need to go. Then when we all agreed, the bolts got drilled... we red pointed and called it a day.

The problem I have with rap bolting is how fast some of these climbs get "DONE". I have heard 2nd hand stories, from eye whitness, about how the rapping and drilling gets done at nite! Just drop down placing bolts every 10 feet or so ... dosen't matter if they are in the rights spots or not. This makes for some pretty crappy climbs that soon are forgotten.

Great stone is a precious resource, grid bolting it is a waste of that stone.

And ill toss some gasolene on the fire.... chipping into that stone, so YOU can do the root... is stealing from all climbers.

slabbo

Trad climber

fort garland, colo

Mar 29, 2013 - 08:12pm PT

There is no substitute for experience when doing f/a's,,, Ya screw up sometimes,, BUT

ground up..! new routes or no routes

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Mar 29, 2013 - 08:35pm PT

You guys who think rap bolting is faster than GU have no effin clue. I took Six days to bolt Mo Pleasure top down I bolted Mad Man Gu in one day. same cliff, simeler length of pitch and dificulty. I have dozens of examples of this on both methods. Most of the time A top down route takes a lot of work and planning to get it done correctly where as a GU rout you simply step up to the stone and climb it. If anyone is simply rapping a line and fireing in bolts without top ropeing and planning precisly where the route goes and where each clip is they need a swift kick in the nutts and have their drill confiscated. Rap bolting done correctly usually results in a much better route than many of the GU efforts unless the GU party goes back after the FA and fixes all their mistakes. Again if you simply drop a line and fire in bolts every 10 ft you have no clue and no right to be drilling.

Typically when i am doing gu route I am thinking of the final product so i take my time and put my belayer in a coma while i ponder the best path yet it is generaly faster than my top down routes. I refuse to drill on the first take of bolt marks. it needs to be TRed several more times to make certain that the marks are in the right place before setting drill to stone. this usually results in changes to the first plan, more cleaning, broken holds whose weakness was not noted on the first run. then you run out of gas if the climb is hard so maybe you get in 2 or three bolts that you are certain of and call it a day. then you come back again for more tr work and planning. maybe you get it finished on the 2nd day, maybe not.. GU the decisions are made much faster. the bolt goes in and you keep going up. there have been times when i drilled GU only to do one more move and find a hidden gear placement. Other times i simply did not go where i should have and had to move the bolt later to make a better route. Sometimes I did moves with gear that sucked and was yanked under body weight when bounce tester after the fa. If you do it GU PLEASE go back and fix it cause otherwise we are stuck with a hackjob for the rest of your misreble life...... If you do hack jobs TD PLEASE give your drill away to someone who has a clue!

Ksolem

Trad climber

Monrovia, California

Mar 29, 2013 - 08:37pm PT

I'm a ground up climber (in more ways than one!)

I get it that there are certain crags and situations where the best approach is just to get the bolts in anyway you can, and then after that task is done you get to climb.

I've never been quite willing to pop my cherry in that way, so I have never rap bolted except for maintenance work.

I like doing routes which suit themselves well to ground up ascents, and I do think that rap bolting such climbs deprives the first ascent of a great adventure and challenge.

I have done a number of bolted routes by drilling from hooks, which can be exciting. Some of these routes were quite challenging. Of course a red point is mandatory to call it done. A basic rule though: Do not use the hooks to make progress. I've seen more than one bolt placement get screwed up this way (hard or impossible to clip.) Free climb and figure out where you need a bolt and be sure you can clip it. Odds are that if you can make a clip you can either get a stance or a hook on something right there.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

Mar 29, 2013 - 08:48pm PT

If you are worried about about someone depriveing you of the FA get out there and git er done. Don't cry about someone getting to it before you in a different style. In my experience the TD climb takes just as long and more often longer to put up that the GU climb. The more relevent factor in my experience has been how much time I have spent thinking about getting up there someday and doing a route VS going up there today and putting up that route. BTW I have far more GU FA's than TD. i just really embraced the idea of TD last season..
There are still a few i would like to do GU if I can get a belayer. GU is so much easier with a belayer VS rope solo. most of the climbs that i want to do GU Vs TD is because they will be EASIER and less scary to do GU than TD ... rapping over big sharp roofs scares the crapola out of me! Hummping all my gear to the top of a cliff six times is horrendously more work than humping it to the base of the cliff once or twice.

Urmas

Social climber

Sierra Eastside

Mar 29, 2013 - 08:53pm PT

I don't see a huge difference between bolting on hooks or on rappel - they're both aid climbing. Sure, using hooks and going ground up is far more adventurous for the first ascentionist, but one is more likely to put the bolts in the right places on rappel. In the end the quality of the route - and the bolting - are more important than the style of the FA.

Of course I'm not demeaning the important quality of the experience for the first ascentionist. Climbing would not be the great sport it is, if just getting the job done was of primary importance for everyone. Style is very important, and is after all central to why we do this stuff in the first place.

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, CA

Mar 29, 2013 - 08:57pm PT

I have done a number of bolted routes by drilling from hooks, which can be exciting. Some of these routes were quite challenging. Of course a red point is mandatory to call it done. A basic rule though: Do not use the hooks to make progress. I've seen more than one bolt placement get screwed up this way (hard or impossible to clip.) Free climb and figure out where you need a bolt and be sure you can clip it. Odds are that if you can make a clip you can either get a stance or a hook on something right there.

Yep!