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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2011 - 11:39am PT
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I'm getting more used to them all the time. The farthest I've run in them is five miles. I use conventional (Sportiva) trail shoes for longer runs.
The feel is def different and as you know, you naturally shift to a different running style in them. They seem to make your feet / lower legs stronger.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Mar 18, 2011 - 01:56pm PT
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A few months ago Mike recommended a cool book called "Born to Run: A hidden tribe, superathletes, and the Greatest race"
It was on the best seller list for a while, and luckily our library had a copy. It was one of the best books I've ever read on sport.
It's a journalist following/writing on the ultra scene and the Tarahumara indians of Mexico, but with tangents into running science, injuries, why these natives can run huge distances in basically a homemade sandal and little food after getting wasted on homemade beer the night before. Full of colorful characters and intriguing looks at african tribes running down prey on foot, a college coach who's methods made multiple 3rd tier schools a powerhouses of distance running.
The relevant point here is, it looks at common running injuries and more or less points to the fact that modern cushioned and motion control running shoes CAUSE injury, rather than prevent it. It's a compelling case for running in the 5-finger or similar unstructured "shoes".
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2011 - 02:19pm PT
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I just read this book as well and would recommend it to all. It's an eyeopener.
it was talking with Mike and reading that book that got me into exploring the 5 finger thing.
Another interesting tangent in that book is that he suggests that Castaneda was really talking about the Tarahumara. That having Don Juan be a Yaqui was a smokescreen. It makes sense in my experience, I used to live near a Yaqui town (Guadalupe, Az)and they didn't strike me the way Carlos described them. For one thing they're catholic and have no tradition of shamans/Brujos...
Here's the quote, From Born to run;
"Carlos Castaneda, author of the wildly popular Don Juan books of the ‘60’s was almost unquestionably referring to the Tarahumera when he described magical Mexican shamans with astonishing wisdom and endurance. But in ab apparent twinge of Compassion dekiberately misidentified the tribe as the Yaquis. Castaneda apparently felt that, in the event that his books launched an invasion of peyote-hungry hippies, the badass Yaquis could hold their own a lot better than the gentle Tarahumara."
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Maysho
climber
Soda Springs, CA
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Mar 18, 2011 - 02:27pm PT
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Seconding the post about the importance of rest and recovery. Yesterday skied 15k, did some speed pickups (12 sec) and then two sets of 30X30's. Then got a massage, which I haven't done since the early 90's. Slept deeper and longer than usual, and am chilling today. Sunday is the big Gold Rush marathon ski race, and we are supposed to get dumped on for the next 4 days.
I do need to shovel the 3 feet off the deck before the next 7 feet come in, now shoveling "up" as the adjacent slopes have about 12 feet on them! But I am doing it in small shifts to keep the abs and back from tiring.
Eating yams and drinking water and getting ready to SLAM (skate like a maniac) on Sunday morning in a blizzard.
Peter
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 18, 2011 - 05:19pm PT
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5.33 Miles in 64 minutes on the Stairmaster. Little slower than yesterday:-(
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Mees
climber
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Mar 18, 2011 - 05:45pm PT
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Beware of the minimal shoes and five finger things. They take getting used to, if you don't work into them gradually you'll increase your chances of injury quite a bit, especially if you run on hard surfaces. I've seen it happen to several folks. Personally, I'd recommend just staying off the pavement and run on softer surfaces, with regualar running shoes but to each their own like anything else. A lot of 3rd world runners run bare foot and do very well, thing is they lived walked/ran bare foot all their lives and their feet, legs etc are used to it. Most americans don't grow up going bare foot. Another benefit of the minimal shoe is to encourage mid heel striking rather than heel striking, something you can work on if you practice it.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Mar 18, 2011 - 06:28pm PT
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Another interesting tangent in that book is that he suggests that Castaneda was really talking about the Tarahumara. That having Don Juan be a Yaqui was a smokescreen. It makes sense in my experience, I used to live near a Yaqui town (Guadalupe, Az)and they didn't strike me the way Carlos described them. For one thing they're catholic and have no tradition of shamans/Brujos...
There may not have been any Curanderos practicing among the Yaqui you knew in Guadalupe, but there are definitely Yaqui shamanic traditions. The Yaqui synthesis of indigenous and Catholic tradition is pretty amazing, and you're right, it doesn't much resemble anything Castaneda describes. This is a piece from 1980:
http://parentseyes.arizona.edu/southcorner/curandero.html
This Pascua Yaqui site has really nice links to Yaqui docs and oral literature collections, including Lary Evers's South Corner of Time and this great issue of JSW:
http://parentseyes.arizona.edu/journalofthesw/index.html
Castaneda has long since been revealed as a fraud. During the period he claimed to have been in Mexico, UCLA Library logs show that he was sitting in the LIbrary reading books about peyote and shamanism. His works are cut-and-pasted from other people's work on a wide array of different indigenous traditions. And some of the are just fabrications.
Doesn't mean that you can't learn about running from the Tarahumara, just that you can't get there from Carlos.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Mar 18, 2011 - 11:46pm PT
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Mountain bike, 20 miles, all rocky single track.
Down 21.5 lbs, 7.5 to go.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2011 - 11:54pm PT
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Fascinating, thanks Kerwin. I always thought Carlos' stuff was not as it appeared, and wondered how much was what. But I never knew much about Yaqui tradition besides what was conducted locally, where I was then, twenty odd years ago...
I think it's more, inspired by, my own construct of, the Tarahumara...
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 19, 2011 - 01:13am PT
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I managed to up both the reps and weight loads on my health club pumping-iron circuit training today. Up by 20 pounds and 3 more reps on the leg presses and an additional set of 18 reps; up by 15 pounds on the flyes. Up by 10 pounds on the triceps machine and up by 5 reps on both torso-twist machine and at max of weight that I use on abdominal crunches. Pretty sore tonight!
Took two 1 mile walks today; once before workout and another after workout.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Mar 19, 2011 - 01:15pm PT
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always wanted to go to tarahumara country.
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Pewf
climber
nederland
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Mar 19, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
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Pulled chariot + child on mtn bike for maybe an hour and a half. Discovered half way through that releasing hand brake on trailer would improve performance.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
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OT, so KLK I've been thinking about the Tarahumara and parallels with the Stolbisti. The first an isolated group in Mexico with a tradition of extreme running, and the other isolated in Siberia with a tradition of bold free soloing (okay, now it's about climbing). Is it the isolation and opportunity that does it? There must be other similar obsessive traditions that have evolved other places and in history. Got any stories?
I'd love to discover that the Shoshoni invented the invert....
Meanwhile, On Topic;
Raining "like a tall cow pissing on a flat rock" here. The trails are a sheet silicate nightmare, in my hood currently. i think after I finish my taxes to I'm going to put on some wet weather armor and run the paved bicycle trail loop in a bit. Real running shoes and everything...
Pewf, at least it's probably a better workout with the trailer wheels locked up!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Mar 19, 2011 - 01:56pm PT
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yeah, the stolby deal is pretty amazing, i'd like to know a lot more about that history, along with some of the other indignous history in places like the urals and caucasus.
of course, other isolated, rural populations also develop distinctive cultural practices, like taking lots of drugs, elaborating conspiracy theories, and posting on the internet.
the castaneda thing was part of the oral legend of u of arizona and then also ucla. sort of a sad story, really, especially for the yaqui who now are "known" to americans largely as the objects of castaneda's drug-addled fantasies. but it was also a disaster for anthro and especially ed spicer, a really good anthropologist who stuck his neck out for castaneda and vouched for him. it was a disaster when the hoax was basically revealed-- a black eye for spicer and his program and a disaster for the sort of young turk wing of anthro that had been strongly influenced by youth culture.
it's one of the reasons that many ethnolinguists became much more careful about the way they approached native oral literature, which is a good thing. lary and felipe's treatment of the yaqui testamento in that special issue of jsw is a good example. a very respectful and judicious historical introduction, then photos of the original doc; transcription of the yaqui version; and then careful spanish and english translations.
and it's great running, hiking, climbing country so not entirely ot.
heh.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Mar 19, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
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I just did my first run of the year. 4 1/2 mile trail run barefoot.
It's the only way I run. I do most of my hiking barefoot too.
Tough Feet!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2011 - 04:10pm PT
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I'd like to know more about the marathon monks, but @$356, I think i'll have to stay in the dark....
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wildone
climber
Troy, MT
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Mar 19, 2011 - 04:19pm PT
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Born to run was almost infuriating in it's omission of Jim Dunlop, an ultra runner active in the races involving tarahumara indians. You may recall the "man against horse" segment of the book? The author goes into great detail about two guys who beat the horses, but makes no mention whatsoever of the first man in the race's 80 some odd year history to beat the horses just a couple years before the two guys it focused on. Kinda strange.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 19, 2011 - 04:19pm PT
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5.60 miles in 60 minutes on the Stairmaster today.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Mar 19, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
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I'd like to know more about the marathon monks, but @$356, I think i'll have to stay in the dark....
the wages of poverty is ignorance . . . .
heh
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