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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 29, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
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"Hanging draws takes a lot of energy away from the climbing."
You could always top-rope it, if you're afraid of blowing yourself out clipping bolts.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Dec 29, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
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JPL - I get where you are coming from. I just think you might be being a little to specific with the grades. but if I were to have an opinion on your dividing line I'd probably tend to agree.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 29, 2010 - 11:53pm PT
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Thanks Leeper. I missed it earlier when lurking. :)
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Austin, Texas
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Dec 29, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
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Not a problem.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 30, 2010 - 12:48am PT
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"JSTAN - you did see that Ian is a state park employee. I don't think he was rewarding the guy for cleaning up abandoned property.
We can think strategically about how we talk to public officials. On one hand we say that we can police ourselves and are a good bunch. That doesn't work if we take our battles to Big Brother."
Reading this thead causes one to wonder if the failure to police ourselves has not already occurred.
And each of us is more than just a climber. Each of us is also a part owner of Smith Rocks. "Big Brother" is actually an employee of ours making sure our property is properly used.
If a climber you know drove up to the cliff in a D8, would you still avoid "Big Brother"? If you say yes we will have learned something.
If you say "no", I will do something really nasty. I will ask what someone has to do that would cause you to enlist "Big Brother's" aid. That is actually the kind of information we all really need to know.
Edit:
That is a very good start. Questions have to be brought out onto the table. Maybe we can avoid having to face two issues that are moving us toward reduced access.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Dec 30, 2010 - 01:29am PT
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I can support involving land owners and managers in MAJOR issues where people can be hurt. I can even see enlisting the aid of a nearby agent when illegal activity is occurring and confrontation with the thief could get ugly (the draw thief).
Involving officials in the ethical squabbles of climbers is a recipe for regulation (which no one may like) or getting kicked out for being an unruly user group. 20 years of experience attempting to keep or open access to cliffs taught me that climbers can be their own worst enemy. When you run to Daddy or Big Brother, the toy may get taken away from everyone.
So I don't like draws left in place for days on end. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. You can see some of them from the main hiking trail without binoculars. I prefer not to give the anti-climbers any more ammunition to shut us down. I won't touch those draws - that is stealing. I won't complain or draw attention to management, lest they deem us all a scar on the historic viewshed like Twin Sisters. We can get so caught up winning our little battles that we lose the war.
I have found entire racks on two occasions, and returned them. One stuck cam is booty. A line of draws, a rack, an injured climber's pro on a route, pro immediately following a rainstorm - that is not booty.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Dec 30, 2010 - 02:56am PT
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^^^^---- couldn't say it any better myself (and I been tryin')
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p-owed
Social climber
Ramona ca
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Dec 30, 2010 - 02:59am PT
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If you leave gear behind your lucky if its their at all when you come back. part of clean climbing is cleaning up your gear. you left it you lost it.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 30, 2010 - 03:05am PT
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Leaving a line of quickdraws (or a line of chalked holds) can be less than pleasant to look at. (Except, of course, when truly necessary - emergency, etc.) Whatever the management requirements for the place, it seems poor stewardship or manners - call it what you like. It's also somewhat territorial behaviour, something like claim posts.
But then, Jesse posted on the "Nose Wipe" thread that climbers had fixed ropes on all but three pitches of the Salathe Wall this year, to "work" the route in their attempts to "free" it. Plus caches of gear, food and water, at least from Heart Ledge up. All for convenience, given that 49 years ago, two climbers did it the second ascent in six days, using only 13 bolts, with a storm near the top. Who's having the "better" adventure?
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Dec 30, 2010 - 03:25am PT
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so climbing rocks is only about adventure?
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Dec 30, 2010 - 07:47am PT
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Last time I was @ smith (quite a few years now) there were fixed draws on the 5.5 near the dihedrals. So ya, I have no problem with your fixies....5.9, 5.14, 6.19, whatever...
That is not a typo, 5.5. We were elitist and joked about folks working out moves on 5.5, but if I go back in my career, I couldn't even send 5.5 on TR my first time out.
imo, Smith is one of the very best places to learn how to climb. The moderates are very well protected--some might claim "over"pro'ed, unlike other areas *ahem* where if you don't climb 5.hard (11 and up, often a bolt ladder that was freed) you might be on death routes. And as you progress up the grades in smith, things tend to get more run...just look at the first bolt of Darkness (13a)-it's a pretty stout 18' up with some moves before the clip, iirc.
This I think is the "better" way to do things. By the time you are climbing 13a you should be able to string some moves without clips every 4'...but for a novice on low angle "broken ankle" territory I think bolts should be "early and often"...certainly @ the "birthplace"...
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Dec 30, 2010 - 09:19am PT
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so climbing rocks is only about adventure?
Heck no, just ask JLP. It's about not having to hang that excruciating 12 oz. of draws on your harness, it's about the beauty of being so bitchin' that you can send that gym problem with only a week of yo-yo-ing. (aid) It's about the fecking NUMBERS man!
He uses 5.8 trad like it's a dirty word, and 5.11 is barely passable.
Let me tell you pal, there are some old school 10's in this country where you have to climb a real distance above gear, that you yourself have to place, which in your case wouldn't be very good because some of that stuff requires an eye and experience, with real consequences beneath you, that would make you sh*t your gym panties.
Just in case you're wondering, refer back to post 81. You're the one who first called anyone below mid-12's comments "stupid".
Believe it or not, there was a time at Smith when it wasn't so beautiful with fixed draws everywhere. You make it sound as though 5.14 pre-placed draws is somehow the pinnacle of achievement in this sport. Give us a break.
And you don't need binoculars to see the gawddamned things either, to whoever made that comment.
Disturbingly few here seem to have the gist - Rifle, the Red, Smith, NRG, American Fork
Disturbingly....No, we get it, believe me we get it. That's what is disturbing, that so many people think that this is what climbing is, or is about. It's not about the mountains or exploration or adventure, it's about the next highest number clipfest.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Dec 30, 2010 - 10:01am PT
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Smith climbers have this worked out and have for the last 30 years and it's working fine: that is, once you actually go to Smith and get away from the computer. There are no problems there and as Werner said based on his trip there 100 years ago, there is a good community and nice people. No one is suggesting that pre-hung draws be taken to the gunks Jstan.
Roxjox said: I remember stories. I even remember trading a pack and $10 for a better pack. I still got it, 35 years later. I was certain at the time the guy had stole it, and I even knew where. Thats why he wanted to sell it. You trade for a pack which you knew or even think was stolen and you're a damn thief too Rokjox. If thief's couldn't sell (or trade) that stuff they would soon stop stealing it.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Dec 30, 2010 - 10:08am PT
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I would have been throwing punches before he was off the rope. Then I'd have taken the rope and everything else he had.
"It would almost be worth getting keyed just to catch the mother er doing it"
Prod.
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Dec 30, 2010 - 10:10am PT
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That was handled very well by Tim and Ian. It is a good thing they caught him, it could have gone a lot worse.
Thanks for the report, Jack.
Erik Wolfe
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dec 30, 2010 - 10:22am PT
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Thanks Tim S. I would be perturbed if I were a C-Springs climber being portrayed in that way.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Dec 30, 2010 - 10:25am PT
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Goodness gracious!
JLP agrees with what the crux of this thread WAS originally~ the Lucky Charms dude was STEALING. Plain and simple.
Leaving draws on top end routes is not new and not going to change.
Stitch~ do you really know the Lucky Charms thief? I can't tell if you were serious.
Too bad this thread went the way of "land managers", etc... but it IS the Taco.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Dec 30, 2010 - 10:26am PT
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If you had a big stick it could have been like a Pinata when he was 10 feet off the ground.
Prod.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Dec 30, 2010 - 10:34am PT
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the Lucky Charms dude was STEALING. Plain and simple.
"Lucky Charms dude", BWA HA Haaahahahaa!!!
That's the funniest shizz I've read in days!
His handle shall forever be, The Lucky Charms Draw Bandit!
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Nick
climber
portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2010 - 10:48am PT
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It seems this event is lees a mater of style and more an issue of ethics. Leaving draws on a route for a short period of time does not harm anyone. The style of leaving draws on routes at Smith, especially more difficult routes, is well established and not highly controversial. Taking material property definitely does harm. Even if this guy thought he was salvaging, he was not following the law of the sea.
No way Smith is the high sea.
• Law of Salvage: If the property that is the object of a salvor is owned by someone other than the salvor, the salvor is entitled to compensation, not title. The property is not considered abandoned.
• Law of Finds: An adjunct to the Law of Salvage. If the property is abandoned, i.e., the owner has relinquished title voluntarily or title has been lost, then the salvor is entitled to own the property. Abandonment must be proven.
By all standards the guy is a thief. Nicely handled.
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