Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2005 - 06:27am PT
|
Saddam Hussein was bad for Iraq, bad for the Middle East, and bad for the World Community. Whacking Hussein was good for Iraq, good for the Middle East, and good for the World Community. Hussein's reign of terror is well documented. His support for International Terror was more than sufficient reason to us to take action.
If you want to take the opposite position and say Hussein was a good guy, good for Iraq, good for the Middle East, and good for the World Community, then I would have to vigorously disagree. How could someone think Hussein needed to be left alone, and worse, the Iraqi people left to suffer Hussein's tyrany.
The Iraqi people were starving while Hussein was building an average of four billion-dollar palaces each year. Hussein's goons would cut the tongues out of the mouths of anyone that complained about his dictatorship. Another mass grave was uncovered just this week, who knows how many more are left undiscovered. That is what's known as Intolerable Conditions, no human being, even one of a different race from us, should be forced to live in such a situation.
As far as the assumption that the Government is taking advantage of our fear, I would ask "what fear?". No one I know is running around afraid of anything. Where is this fear? Who is afraid? I am angry that we were attacked, extremely angry, but I know of no one who is scared. Since when are Americans afraid of violence?
We are a great and a benevolent country. When people are hungry, we feed them. When people have their houses washed out to sea, or destroyed by earthquake, we work to build new ones. And when people are denied self-determination, we strive to deliver them basic human rights and democracy. It's the American Way.
|
|
TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2005 - 07:48am PT
|
Karl, you claimed "Trad wrote...". I never wrote what you ascribed to me. You are certainly welcome to disagree, but please, when you do, make sure that it was me. :-)
Occam's razor.
|
|
426
Sport climber
That one arete, HP40, AL
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2005 - 10:26am PT
|
LEB-
Look at Japanese-American relations with regards to the Phillipines before WWII. Close buds. Hmmm. Also, check out who embargoed Japan in the run up to Pearl Harbor.
Embargo, while not all out warfare, is a serious kind of 'economic' warfare.
But while we're on the vaguely related subject, Gulf of Tonkin(?)
"what fear?". No one I know is running around afraid of anything.
Uhh, except for soccer moms and nascar dads as well as most Republicans. Ask them...they are so hubristic, they think OBL's after them...remember Cheney, "vote for them and you'll die"?
Yeah, we're striving to deliver basic human rights (by raping 10 year olds? by bombing cities the size of Chicago?)...before you even go there with the Limbaugh standard (a few bad apples...oh, actually, I mean fraternity pranks) let me finish the cliche-spoiled the barrel.
For a 'self-styled' libertarian you sure seem to want a lot of "Gov't" intervention. Check out the defense budg, most 'lp'ers start screaming when they see all those zeros. Is it the "guns and dope" issue?
Let me hit you up with a parting shot...delivering "democracy" which is superceded by Sharia Law?
The Iraqi Constitution..
Article (2): 1st - Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source of legislation:
(a) No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam.
(b) No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy.
The thing is, Islam and a "liberal democracy" don't really mesh well. But I guess most Americans would prefer our own country more theocratic....
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2005 - 12:25pm PT
|
Global-hawk guidance system with psyops duped these poor guys.
Nice post Lois, and now on to these guys ....
Then they write these long winded things with statements like "the slobbering retards" like they really know something and are so much smarter than everyone else.
I now see where the real conspiracy is initiated ......
|
|
Tuan DeLusion
Social climber
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2005 - 12:53pm PT
|
He loved Big Brother.
The crux.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2005 - 01:25pm PT
|
I also believe that the attack on Pearl Harbor was yet another case of bungled opportunities, though technology and communication then was so poor things were somewhat stacked against them. As to the did we incite the Japanese to war? I do believe we did, though somewhat inadvertantly.
Japan was using England as a model for it's development and as a template for its imperialism. This made a good deal of sense given they were both island nations with few resources. We were definitely "corraling" them and "pressuring" them relative to East Asian resources and they knew it. I think we simply vastly underestimated their response to our actions and also the degree to which they took those actions as an affront and insult. We further invited trouble by not really paying attention to their [massive] arms build up; this was due in no small part to racial perceptions of the time that caused many in power to simply dismiss their capabilities.
In a very real sense we did invite, incite, and provoke Pearl Harbor, and an incident in the Pacific would have been welcomed by those looking to further engage us in war - we just didn't realize we were going to get bitten by a dragon as opposed to a mosquito...
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2005 - 08:11pm PT
|
I agree that vast conspiracy seems pretty unlikely, but it would also be unnecessary.
Let's say Cheney and Rumsfeld and a very few loyalists had a highly placed mole or two in Al Queda, or even a dummy cell. (remember how Al Queda operates) They could easily plant the idea for 9-11 in Al Queda. They could pass on the info that war games on Sept 11th would draw air resources away from NY and DC and that those war games could put false radar blips on screens so the planes would be unlikely to be shot down. The fact that those war games happened on 9-11 is not in question. Did Al Queda find out, were they told, or is it just a coincidence?
That's all it would take to inspire and facilitate. The rest of the players in the US and in Al Queda could have been acting in perfect good faith otherwise.
"Who benefits" is easy. Everybody knows that a wartime president is a powerful president and that the Neocons had long standing plans to invade Iraq that wouldn't get public support except in case of war. Read the PNAC documents published by those guys themselves (referenced above) If you can't see that 9-11 has enabled the Administration to consolidate power and enact their will with little resistence, you can't see.
I don't know what happened on 9-11. There are serious holes in the official story. I do think there was a conspiracy to use 9-11, however it happened, to invade Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9-11. There's TONS of evidence for that, the Downing Street memos in particular, and we're not even seriously investigating that. The Iraq war is a big enough conspiracy to qualify as the crime of the century in and of itself. If you haven't read the Downing Street memos and understood what they mean about the Iraq war. I officially pronounce you "Sheep"
http://www.downingstreetmemo.com/
And the fact that nobody has been jailed or impeached for the Iraq lie is evidence that crime can pay if you understand the people are sheep and you are bold enough to run with that.
Who burned the "Reichstag" building? Nobody really knows or has proof to this day! Does anybody still believe the official German Story when it happened?
Peace
Karl
PS TradisGood. I corrected the misattribution you mentioned above. Sorry.
You asked about Mossadeq. He was the Democratically elected leader of Iraq, who some say was overthrown with the help of the CIA so we could put the Shaw in. This lead to a series of events that arguably led to the Iranian revolution and the roots of USA hating terrorism.
http://www.iranonline.com/newsroom/Archive/Mossadeq/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mossadeq
We are blind to what we can't face. Just for kicks, since not one person answered this directly, I'll post this a forth time.
Answer my damn question at the End!
THE US GOVERNMENT HAS ACTUALLY PLANNED TERRORIST ATTACKS AGAINST THE US. It wasn't during a GOP administration either. Sh#t happens. check out
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html
"Code named Operation Northwoods, the plan, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war."
Let say that Kennedy didn't 86 the plan which was signed off on by the whole Joint Chiefs, and a round of violent terrorist attacks were pulled off by the Kennedy Government on Americans.
This very nearly happened . Ask yourself this question
"Would I have questioned the evidence that it was Kennedy and not Castro killing Americans or just assumed that such a thing was unthinkable?"
We believe what we want to believe. If something is too far out of our worldview and experience, our mind glances right over it.
If you can at least answer my question
"Would I have questioned the evidence that it was Kennedy and not Castro killing Americans or just assumed that such a thing was unthinkable?"
You will at least prove your mind can go there
peace
karl
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2005 - 08:19pm PT
|
Well, at least he invents the enemys he needs.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2005 - 08:31pm PT
|
Pretty easy to mock and call assinine, even in the face of the many other dark conspiracies that have already come to light.
At least answer the question I've posted four times along with your mocking, which contains no rebuttal, evidence or considered opinion
PEace
karl
|
|
kevin Fosburg
Sport climber
park city,ut
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2005 - 09:18pm PT
|
Karl,
I think the reason that your question has not been answered directly is ironically because it is so appropriate and to the point. I'm sure those military heavies really did sign off on that plan to manufacture a "terrorist" Cuban attack on the U.S. in order to justify military action. It also seems likely that virtually no one would have questioned it at the time just like 9/11 provided the superficial justification for the never ending "war on terrorism". They killed chicky-baby and they let 9/11 happen to further their evil plan of global hegemony.
Lois, do you climb? If not, maybe you should post elsewhere.
|
|
Ouch!
climber
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2005 - 09:18pm PT
|
Lois, what about all the sacrifices to his stupid blunders in Iraq? American and Iraqi. 3,000 is a small number compared to his kills in the Middle East. Talk about contrived bullsh#t.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2005 - 09:49pm PT
|
My impatience with your theories comes from personal knowledge and experience.
In the 60's my Spanish teacher was a well positioned Cuban frredom fighter at the Bay of Pigs. Saw his brother cut in half by a machine gun on the beach. I heard first hand the whole story including the political intrigue and betrayal. Your quoted stories are mostly fabrication and the parts that are factual have long been known.
Up untill about two months before 911 I ran the national accounts group for a division of the company that ran the WTC. The Building Engineers, Electricians, Elevator Mechanics and Janitors all worked for us. All the crackpot theories of preplaced explosives etc. are just that. We lost some people too which makes the crackpots all the more galling.
On Iraq and the lack of WMD's?
Ask one of my closest relatives about the planeloads he personally flew back here.
You remind me of a boy that in the huburus of childhood believes he is immune from the cars on the street in front of his house, while terrified of the Chubracabra in his closet.
Get real!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2005 - 09:58pm PT
|
TGT
What you said above does not in any way confirm that you have any knowledge of what really happen.
|
|
Ouch!
climber
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2005 - 10:41pm PT
|
Lois, the effect is the same. What does it matter if you are whacked by a blundering idiot or a tyrant, or Bush, who is both. Dead is dead. Parts is parts.
I doubt this country can ever recover from his stupidity and arrogance.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2005 - 11:25pm PT
|
In a nutshell
What we fail to understand it's not for personal gain whatsoever, but for the idealistic elevated goal maintaining the consciousness of American Supremacy and world dominance for a so called free society. The minute you are out of the personal gain arena the cards are played entirely differently with a set of rules that can be expanded on a far larger scale.
You are now saving the world!
It's seen as the price to pay to keep this freedom intact. The real powers (Big, big and the biggest buisnesses, the beast itself) are the strings that move the puppet. Most people are by nature very good hearted (like Lois) and this makes it all together much easier to carry out so called altruistic plans.
It goes much deep than this, as we’re only skimming the surface here in these threads, which also brings out doubts and arguments for and against. This works nicely to the advantage of the perpetrators.
God forbid the world does not operate in such a way …….
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Dec 31, 2005 - 11:26pm PT
|
"Yes, but on the one hand it is with the norm to send troops off to war even if said decision was injudicious in the first place. It would not require a person (in this case Bush) to be particularly extraordinary in any way to do so. One might argue that there was an element of incompetence or, for certain, underestimating of the costs involved and underestimating all the dynamics. That is one thing and, sadly, all too common a thing, at that.
Lois, here you really go way, way too far in terms of downplaying how deliberate and premeditated the decision to go to war was. There is ample proof at this point that CRW (Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz) were determined to invade Iraq if they got elected - it was the primary neocon strategy/solution discussed ad nausem before the 2000 election. They only lacked the justification and 9/11 gave it to them in spades. I'm not saying they in any way were involved in 9/11, but I am saying from that moment they deliberately manipulated/manufactured intelligence and lied to get their go at it. That was painfully evidenced the moment Cheney had Rumsfeld setup up the Policy Counter-Terrorism Evaluations Group (PCTEG) under Fieth at Defense with two flunkies to produce "baked" intelligence after the DIA and CIA refused to do so.
|
|
426
Sport climber
That one arete, HP40, AL
|
|
my Spanish teacher was a well positioned Cuban frredom fighter at the Bay of Pigs.
Question: Does he work at Gitmo now?
Aye, another rabbit hole; terrorist 'detention' centers on a Communist island?
Hint: don't ride horses through "these" fields...
|
|
426
Sport climber
That one arete, HP40, AL
|
|
be sure you address Jeff Gannon, Newt's dalliances, the Gulf of Tonkin, the PNAC and the embargo of Japan in the 30's...all points which have gone 'unaddressed' so far...
Ed.-I forgot the anal bandit, Dr. David Hager, FDA advisor, appointed by Bush...
|
|
Ouch!
climber
|
|
Yeah, Ragmop, keep it short.
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
^Lois - how can you possibly tell someone else to keep it "short n sweet," when you .....just can't seem to, yourself? Why not try to just accept other users for whom they present themselves to be, and not try to control them?
As for the topic, I've been reading with interest. I have no problem whatsoever believing that our governing leaders, whether it is this admin, or one of many from the past, are capable of creating an event such as 9/11 to further an agenda. But....I have trust issues, so what do I know!
Whether they did or not, I don't know. I don't have the faculty and dedication for doing the type of research necessary to take an educated stance. All I've got is my gut instinct, and I've had a tummy ache for quite some time now.
One other thing. I have an aquaintance who used to work for the Department of Defense. We were meeting for an appointment once, up in Harlem, and when she arrived, she was obviously shaken. I was like "What? There's nothing to be scared of here?" blah, blah, blah...and she told me some stories of being kdinapped at gunpoint and such, in the line of duty. So, I guess she had a little PTSD.... That was a year or so before 9/11.
Anyway, at oanother point, pre-9/11, some folks were dissing the govenrment; can't remember details on what about. But she got this very wierd look of indignation on her face as her body language got stiff as a board. She took a step back, and said, in a very severe tone, "You have no idea what efforts your government goes through to insure the freedoms you take for granted." Of course, she wasn't at liberty to say exactly what efforts, and it was very irritating. Like, if you've got gossip, and you aren't going to spill it - don't put it out there!
Her office was in building #7. On 9/11, she was luckily not there. She had decided a while back, that she couldn't do the job much longer, and was applying to grad school. She'd procrastinated with the app, and had had to get it posted before deadline, and so she was late for work that day.
She said got a cel phone call at some point in the chaotic moments following the attacks, from her supervisor, asking where she was. Apparently, a lot of debris from the other buildings had blasted #7. Her office was hit with schrapnel, and heavily damaged. Had she been there, she would have been killed.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!