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Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
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I think roughly that we are right around 40 drills or so here that people have contacted or posted that they may be interested in.
I am wondering how many small nice retail stores would want to carry a couple. After the stores got them the price would go up so they could make their margin.
Maybe do an initial sale first and then try and wholesale the rest off?
Gonna be a gamble, I am going to talk to the Machine Shop here soon and make a decision.
Thanks everyone.
Luke
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Dec 20, 2010 - 02:54pm PT
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luke--
know any reps? some post here. it wouldn't be a big market, but seems like it shouldn't be that tough to tack onto someone's portfolio as a one-off, so long as they don't already rep petzl.
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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Dec 20, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
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Add me to the list....
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Dec 20, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
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add me.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 20, 2010 - 05:23pm PT
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Hey Minerals and Luke-
I was digging though my parts bin during the baby's afternoon nap and found some useful bits, so threw this together. The cycle shop was closed today so I couldn't pick up a grip for it, but it seemed to work well enough without it (until the POS carbide drill shattered, that is...).
The bolt was a random 3/4" Grade 8 (~3.5" long) that was turned down and threaded 7/16"-20LH. The unthreaded section at the end is smaller to clear the unthreaded section at the collet end of the shank (the bolt acts as a positive stop for the drill, so axial force on the collet should be minimized). Turning it down didn't seem to mess with the temper any (it's ~HRC35 at both the small diameter and on one of the flats on the head), so it should hold up well to hammering. It weighs 9.8oz with a 1/4" collet, which is a bit heavier than I expected. Were I to make it permanent I'd loctite the bolt in place, but I use this collet chuck for other things so I'm holding off for now. The washers form the groove for the leash, but I'd probably opt for using a hole tag washer sized to fit over the small washers. I'm thinking of drilling through the head of the bolt for a rod to use when tightening the nut. This doesn't quite get rid of one of the wrenches, but might be a bit less fiddly.
Either of you want to take it for a test drive?
-aric.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Dec 20, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
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Aric can the tightning rod be a stowaway inside the rubber grip somehow ?
Of course one must carry a wrench anyway to tighten the bolt, too bad that wrench for the bolt's nut cannot also serve as the tightening device for the chuck or collet on one of these drill ideas.
I'm also interested in a unit purchase
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 20, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
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Hey Aric, that looks pretty neat! Do you have a 25/64” collet for it? How about 17/64”? Does the drill bit sit directly against the end of the specialized grade 8 bolt? With the weather the way it’s been, I don’t see getting out any time soon, but it would be fun to compare it to a Hurricane. I’m sure I can find some poor, defenseless granite boulder around here somewhere…
How do you think the grade 8 bolt will hold up, compared to the hardened insert in the Hurricane? My Hurricanes have done quite well for the past dozen or so years – just a little grinding now and then to remove the mushroomed edge.
Bryan
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Dec 20, 2010 - 09:11pm PT
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looks pretty cool!
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
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Dec 20, 2010 - 09:13pm PT
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"Sure Drills Slow"......Haha!
Right on, Minerals. I KNEW you'd be in on some o' this action.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 20, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
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But of course, Mr. Skully. ‘Tis one of my favorite subjects!
Deucey mentioned this earlier, but for anyone who hasn’t read it, or read it recently, you really should have a look at his bolting article from 1988. Also attached on the pdf are test results for various bolts and rivets. This is a really great resource and although I read it a bunch when I was a kid and have a copy of the test results that Deucey gave me, I enjoyed reading it again just now. I learned a lot from this article back then, as well as from Deucey’s other big wall articles around the same time.
The article mentions a simple way to test bolts and hangers with a “funkness” (sorry Bill Russell…) device and a large hammer. This is where I got the idea to do some testing, with a 3-foot funkness, a 10-lb. sledgehammer, and my moto helmet and protective gear! Still need to type up that info some time and take photos of the remaining metal.
Piton Ron is even mentioned in the article!
CHECK THIS OUT!!!!!!!!
http://bigwalls.net/climb/bolts.pdf
Found here:
http://bigwalls.net/climb/index.html
Take a look at the bolt strengths!
Thanks for all of your contributions to the climbing community, Deucey!
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 20, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
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Routine Maintenance:
Spring Cleaning
Grinding the mushroom down, being careful not to get the drill hot
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Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2010 - 10:16pm PT
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Aric,
Looks pretty slick! Mine looked almost identical before the grip was added.
I had originially put in a Grade 8 bolt in the back as well so there was no need to use the drill flats.
The main problem I had with it was that the grade 8 bolt would deform on the side pretty quickly and soon I could not get a wrench around it.
I was just playing with designs though. Looks really nice!
I see there has been a couple more people interested today. I was out in the Fishers all day today and never was able to chat with the outfit that is making them.
Thanks,
Luke
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 20, 2010 - 11:35pm PT
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@Bmacd- I'm sure there's somewhere we could hide the rod.
@Minerals- I have more than a full set of collets (1mm -> 10mm in 1mm increments, so ~1/32 -> ~25/64), so I'm sure I have the ones you need. And yup, the bolt goes clear though to the back of the collet so the drill bears against it. In fact the ER collet will actually pull it in slightly when tightening, so there should be a bit of pressure between the bolt and the drill once it's tightened. Which leads to my next thought, which is that if the bolt is bearing directly on the drill there isn't much reason for so much meat on the collet chuck shank. I think I can knock an ounce or two off it, so let me play a bit more before sending it your way.
@Luke- The Grade 8 deformed for you? Drat. Thought it would be tough enough for this. Any hints on the hardened insert? Is is 17-4PH in H900 condition like the shank? The direction I'm thinking of going would make what's now the head of the bolt a separate piece and replaceable, so perhaps it wouldn't be that big a deal (read: while I've wanted to build a heat treating oven, I'm not really all that inclined to actually get around to doing it).
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Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
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Aric,
The ones I am currently looking @ using are a 7/16 dowl pin that comes in @
58-62 Rockwell on the “C” Scale.
I am by no means an expert on heat treating.
I am going to test these to see how they hold. The agreement I have with this outfit is that if I decide to have a run made, they will turn out a proto, air mail it to me, I am gonna beat the living piss out of it over a few days and make sure that everything hold up to all of our standards.
The grade 8 bolts hold up ok. I dont think that using them as a main part in the collet securing system would do well just based on a little testing I did. Haveing them be removable would be sweet. I wonder if after it was beat on for a while if the threads would become bound making removal difficult.
Sounds Like we are on the same wavelength.
Luke
Edit: If the insert is too hard it is going to wear on the hammer, to soft and it wears to quickly.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 21, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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Don't forget that hardness can lead to brittleness... Dowel pin should be ok though; I've wailed on them before and don't recall ever having one spall.
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campy
climber
California
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Dec 21, 2010 - 01:18am PT
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In my last post I said Jetski grips. I meant to say ATV grips two to a package for 7/8" handlebars.
John
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 21, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
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Wrenches:
The collet nut on the Hurricane requires a 7/8” wrench and the holder itself requires a 9/16” wrench. Two different sets of wrenches are pictured above. The set on the right is an older set, and is much lighter. The set on the left is a newer set and is heavier, but way more beefy.
One problem with the lightweight set on the right is that it’s not easy to use the 7/8” closed-end wrench to tighten the collet nut if the bit becomes stuck in the hole and is loose in the holder (bit is stuck in rock but holder spins on bit because nut has loosened…). This only occurs with the larger 25/64” (3/8”) HSS bits that are really dull. 17/64” or 1/4” bits rarely bind. Keep yer bits sharp!
When a HSS bit really binds up and gets stuck, there are two things that I do – tap on the drill while twisting (usually works), or in the more rare cases when it just doesn’t want to budge, I use the 9/16” wrench on the holder to torque the bit loose. If the holder spins on the stuck bit, both wrenches are required to tighten the collet nut back up such that the holder is again fully attached to the bit. With the closed-end 7/8” wrench, this can only be done by loosening the collet nut completely, pulling the holder off of the stuck bit, placing the closed-end wrench over the stuck bit, placing the holder back onto the stuck bit, and then using the two wrenches to crank the collet nut tight. The 9/16” wrench can then be used on the holder to torque the bit out. This is NOT something that I deal with while stance drilling and is more of a problem when I am rebolting and use a dull bit for way longer than I should. Gotta put a fresh bit in the holder after a few 3/8” holes. More on bits later.
Another problem is that these thinner wrenches are not as strong as the beefier ones and may begin to crack on either side of the jaws, as the 9/16” wrench pictured on the far right has. I figured that the right prong would have snapped off by now, given that the crack goes halfway through. Nope… still crankin’ on it. Hmmm… Makes me wonder… Well, it still works!!!
The wrench set on the left is heavier, but you can crank on ‘em without ever worrying about wrench strength/durability. As far as wrench/bolt compatibility goes, the wedge bolt enthusiasts can use the 9/16” wrench to tighten the nut on 3/8” threaded wedge bolts, and soft rock bolters can use the 9/16” wrench to tighten 1/2” 5-piece bolts. Not bad. For the standard 3/8” 5-piece bolts used for hard rock, an additional 1/2” wrench is needed. The nut on the Fixe 3/8” or 10mm stainless wedge bolts requires a 17mm wrench, I think – not compatible, but to me, neither is that bolt…
“…In fact the ER collet will actually pull it in slightly when tightening, so there should be a bit of pressure between the bolt and the drill once it's tightened. Which leads to my next thought, which is that if the bolt is bearing directly on the drill there isn't much reason for so much meat on the collet chuck shank.”
Aric, I’m not sure I completely follow what you are saying. With stuck bit problems that arise from time to time when using dull bits, as described above, I think it’s good that the collet grab as much of the bit as possible so that the bit is less likely to spin in the holder should a wrench be needed to torque a stuck bit loose. Does that make sense, or am I on a different page?
With your drill holder design, a pre-made cable wrist-loop could be swapped out for a damaged one, simply by removing the grade-8 bolt, switching the wrist-loops, and then replacing the grade 8-bolt. To replace a damaged wrist-loop on a Hurricane, a swager setup is needed.
If there are no wrench flats on the holder itself, then one wrench is used on the hex end of the grade-8 bolt and one on the collet nut, in order to tighten the collet, correct? Does the grade-8 bolt need to be doused in red loctite to prevent it from loosening before the collet nut loosens, when trying to remove a drill bit? If the collet nut is tighter than the grade-8 bolt, then the bolt will loosen before the collet nut loosens, meaning that you can’t get the bit out of the holder. Yes? No?
Luke,
I hope you decide to go through with this Hurricane project and that things work out for you! Let me know if there is anything else that I can do to help.
Thanks, Campy!
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Dec 21, 2010 - 02:02pm PT
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Minerals, if you can do with the drill what you did with the beaks, seems like you'd have a pretty solid design--perhaps you should build a machine shop with a threading lathe in your garage.. Cheers
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