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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 15, 2010 - 12:27am PT
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"At least with killer wolf packs roaming Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming, the forests are not infested with illegal immigrants growing pot and polluting the streams with their pesticides as in California."--Jan
It's the weather and short outdoor growing season that keep the pot farmers away from Montana and the other two states you mentioned--wolves play no role here in that regard...
...besides, too many deer would be eating the outdoor crops; our best Medical MJ is of the indoor variety. Waay easier to grow inside than outside, objective hazards and the like.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Nov 15, 2010 - 12:36am PT
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Jan: Sorry to say it---but Hispanic pot farms on Government lands are apparently prospering in South Idaho, the last two summers.
There have been some well-publicized busts-which means there must be many more that have not been busted.
As I remember from my "mis-spent youth:" pot grows just fine at 5,000 Ft. in the Northern Rockies.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 15, 2010 - 12:47am PT
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Pot farms are not the issue that meth labs are in those, and probably all, states.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 15, 2010 - 12:48am PT
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Fritz, correct in that MJ does grow fine in higher elevation northern states, but as one travels North in latitude the season gets so short that growers must decide to put all of their "eggs" into one basket and risk dropping it...or go indoors.
Side note .02
edit: Jaybro speaks truth
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:05am PT
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Jan, you're putting words and scenarios in my mouth that I didn't suggest, nor profess.
Broke, yes i am indeed a UDub grad, and have family on the land in Wyo (mostly county 17). I 'get' this complicated situation more than most, reading this, if not as intimetlly as yourself. It's not clear cut, at all. And yes, I do try to poke the hornets nest with a pointed stick at times.
Full disclosure though, i haven't eaten a T-bone, or any mammal, at least on purpose, since at least a year before I graduated in '82.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:27am PT
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In reference to source material, posted on Supertopo Forum, about past remarks from the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation.... recent dramatic declines in elk population have moved the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation to change from a position of what RMEF President David Allen describes was "sitting on the fence about wolves," to its present stance, which favors "managing wolves like other predators, because their population numbers have soared way over the benchmark goals of the re-introduction as elk herds have declined by 80 percent or more in certain areas of the Northern Rockies."
“In letters to legislators and newspapers across the West, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation is calling out groups like Defenders of Wildlife, Western Wildlife Conservancy and others for their disingenuous use of data on wolves and elk.”
Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation Calls Out Motives of Wolf Groups
http://www.rmef.org/NewsandMedia/NewsReleases/2010/WolfGroupMotives.htm
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pc
climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:43am PT
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Holy number spinning batman. Those are some pretty strikingly different takes on the 25 year situation from 2009 to 2010 by RMEF.(Thanks for posting AC) Please take everything these folks say with a big grain of salt. They're hunters! a: They don't want competition for the kill. b: They want another species to kill.
This is from the "About Us" section of the RMEF (Rocky Mtn. Elk Foundation)
History
In 1984, four hunters from Troy, Montana, founded the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation to guarantee a wild future for North America's grandest game animal. (perhaps second grandest now that they've got the wolf in their sights)
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Nov 15, 2010 - 02:19am PT
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The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation table showing total elk population in Idaho rising from 110,000 in 1984 to 115,000 in 2009 conflicts with Idaho Fish and Game population counts which show a drop of 20% in 15 years; 125,000 in 1995 to 100,000 in 2010.
http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/news/fg_news/10/aug.pdf
Total elk population of a state is a misleading number, some areas are doing fine (no wolves) and some areas are crashing (with wolves.)The Lolo herds in northern-central Idaho have dropped about 80 %. In Montana, the Gallatin-Madison herd has dropped 67% to 81%.
From Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks:
http://westinstenv.org/wildpeop/2009/02/11/wolves-reducing-elk-populations-in-montana/
For a long time wildlife experts outside the Montana Dept. of Fish, Wildlife, and Parks have been pointing out the effects of uncontrolled wolf predation on Northern Rocky Mountain elk herds.
This week the MFWP reached the same conclusion. Department biologists tracking elk numbers have noticed an alarming decline in the cow-calf ratio, a sign of imminent population crash.
As a result, the MFWP is reducing hunting permits, although over-hunting by humans is not the problem. The exploding wolf population is — wolves have been mass slaughtering elk at an unsustainable rate.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 15, 2010 - 08:57am PT
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dingus,
i assume you will be climbing in wool, hobnails, or better yet, leave all that sh#t at home and go barefooted. manifest destiny or some such sh#t.
fact is that us humans have been playing around with what species will live even when the first white dudes came west of the Mississippi. we have messed with the natural balance and now each special interest group is fighting for theirs.
besides, i dont have a clue why i am bothering discussing species management with some dude who has a bear on his f*#king flag that the californains got rid of...
EDIT:
could someone tell me why the cali's honor the bear that they made extinct in their state? then to have you guys pretend to tell the other states how to manage their wildlife? freakin hilarious.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 15, 2010 - 09:05am PT
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i like wolves.....
and elk, buffalo, moose, bears, i love all the furry animals.
but until we give back all their natural homes from our subdivisions, ski areas all that then we have to manage them all. hopefully we can do it better than California did their bear.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Nov 15, 2010 - 09:16am PT
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Any stats available for number of tags issued vs number of elk harvested? Success rates have remained pretty high IIRC
And while numbers of elk are down in certain areas, it's not proven that it's because they are all dead...herds have split up and relocated according to some.
A whole lot of factors at play here...and alot of passionate folks wanting the best for our wildlands.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2010 - 10:32am PT
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I happen to like elk; steak, hamburger, meat loaf, etc.
Joking aside, I haven't eaten any elk in maybe 20 years. For those who have never hunted elk, IT'S VERY HARD WORK! It's not simply "going out and shooting one." Guiding and outfitting is (or it WAS) a big industry in Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana. The reduction of the Yellowstone herd population caused the Wyoming G & F Commission to premanantly close the Dubois game check station several years ago, as fewer and fewer hunters ever came through with game. On the other hand, more and more hunters are applying for the area in which I live, which is a drawing/limited license area.
Lois-
The idea of "give me a home where the buffalo roam" has a very romantic sound to it. I've had a neighbor that raised buffalo for the market; I recall he had about 30 animals and then about 20 calves every year. He couldn't keep them on his own land worth a hoot, and he had a much bigger place than I do. he was also a very lazy S.O.B. who didn't feed his animals throughout the winter, so they simply tore fences down and visited the neighbors; mainly the neighbor's haystacks. I had some pasture rented from another neighbor,complete with the hay and irrigation water rights. I succeeded in putting up about 40 large rounds, each weighing 1200 pounds, of pretty decent hay. I stacked they hay there and started using it bale-by-bale. It was in 2 stacks of 20 bales each. One day I went to get hay from the stack nearest the buffalo owner's property and all that was there was....buffalo turds. That was a loss of 24,000 pounds of hay (12 tons), at a cash value (replacement) of $1440.00 Admittedly not a huge amount of money, but the inconvenience of finding a replacement source, and the cash to buy hay during the winter was problematic.
Bottom line: I have no issue with "buffalo roaming," but not on my land or land I've leased. By the way, I received NO reimbursement from the miserable a$$hole for my hay. He went broke anyway, just a few years later.
Another issue with wild buffalo: they are carriers and the natural reservoir of BrucellosisIf you're unfamiliar with the disease, it affects cattle by rendering cows sterile and incapable of reproduction.
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JC5123
Big Wall climber
Casper, WY
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Nov 15, 2010 - 10:46am PT
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Declining elk populations have more to do with mismanagement of land than wolves. IMHO Touching on a few points that I have seen made. It's the uber rich coming in and buying up all the land they can. But what they will do is buy up a bunch of cheaper land surrounding prime public land. They land lock it and then close off access. Then they only allow guided hunts. (for which they get paid quite well)This leads to decreased harvest rates, since the elk all move to these "low pressure" areas. But all packed together like that, they end up dieing of starvation and illness. It's all the weak, and dead that attract the wolves and other predators. After all, what we all like to think of as skilled hunters, i.e. lions, wolves, bears. Most of their diet is made up from scavenged carcasses.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 15, 2010 - 11:45am PT
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I have no problem with the people paying ranchers fair market value for their livestock losses. I do. It's not like they're an S&L or something....
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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Actual wolf weights often skimpier than hunters estimate
Adult females averaged 86 pounds, according to Idaho Department of Fish and Game officials, who also included the weights of wolves struck by vehicles in the survey. For adult males, 101 pounds was the average.
Stats from the 2009 Montana Wolf hunt:
General age classification:
· 22 juveniles; 31% of total harvest
· 22 yearlings; 31% of total harvest
· 27 adults; 38% of total harvest
· 1 unknown
Weights:
· Juveniles weighed 62 pounds on average. Yearlings weighed about 80 pounds. Adults weighed
97 pounds. One wolf weighed 117 pounds.
Sex of harvest:
· A total of 41 males and 31 females were harvested.
from:
http://fwpiis.mt.gov/content/getItem.aspx?id=41454
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Nov 15, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
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a bit about livestock reimbursement
...$141,462 in claims was paid for confirmed and probable death losses in 2009.
·Confirmed cattle death losses increased to 97 in 2009, and confirmed sheep death losses increased to 202. Other confirmed livestock losses include: 4 llamas, 4 dogs, and 2 goats. Other injury and death
losses were not verified or were deemed “probable.” Other impacts are difficult to quantify, but do occur.
· A total of 145 wolves were killed to prevent further depredations.
from
http://fwpiis.mt.gov/content/getItem.aspx?id=42353
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 15, 2010 - 06:11pm PT
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Any and every person that wants wolves walking where-ever need put their money where their mouth is:
http://www.ypf.org/donate/wolfcollar.asp
A worthy cause to back up your opinions;-)
edit: I wonder what the total cost of the Wolf Re-introduction has cost the taxpayers--exponentially higher that what Federal organizations have paid out for domestic predation re-imbursements, eh?
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 15, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
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Giving a driving lesson to a teen (no snickers TK...), Crowley, sorry I was out.
The answer to your question would be:
"Yes, but there doesn't seem to be a general consensus on why millions of tax payer dollars were allocated to do it (nor the total of how much per wolf) and why the Fed won't let States decide upon its own game/wildlife management."
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 15, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
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A drop in the bucket compared to what we pay to subsidize the beef industry...
and then there's the medical expenses on the taxpayer's tab for people who eat beef...
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 15, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
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AC, why haven't you answered or addressed MY questions? I have been more than co-operative with you...
I'll re-post them-- if you are the kind of person who can't scan a thread for other peoples' posts;-)
Jay, I know that we are 180 degrees different on meat and consumption, but no biggee--I appreciate where you are coming from,and are going with it.
Crowley, on the other hand is just a member of the Antagonist Party; I can respect that, but in the long run it just leads to frustration and alcohol:-(
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