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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Oct 10, 2010 - 10:21am PT
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Granite Climber, did you click any of these links Klimmer gave? I did and it has changed some of my assumptions.
Certainly our history is filled with instances wherein the public has believed one truth, yet years later it is quietly seen as a lie. For instance, "Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead" was the screaming headline that got "tough" Teddy Roosevelt elected. Yet after sending an armed force over to free the man from what all US citizens knew was a barbary pirate of the worse sort (Raisuli), it was quietly decided to just secretly pay the ransom, even though by then it had been learned that Perdicaris was not even a US citizen. That Teddy got Perdicaris alive through tough talk and military action was what was "known" to be the truth by all US citizens.
But it was not true. We paid the ransom.
Klimmer said:
GC,
Are you sure you don't work for the NSA, CIA, or other? You sure got the memo down on brain-less ridicule. That is the number one line of defense (which is no defense), obfuscate and ridicule with endless ad hominem attacks. But you absolutely do not have one shred of substance beyond that.
You sure seem to have absolute trust in Uncle Sam. So you are fine with the following known US Government atrocities? Yes, these are documented conspiracies and crimes against humanity and our own citizens, accomplished by our government. Where to begin since there are so many? (this is not a complete list by-the-way): I'll even come back and add links . . .
The atrocities we did to the Chinese immigrants on Angel Island
http://www.poeticwaves.net/non-flash-site/
http://www.sandiegochinese.net/htmls/angel.htm
The Prison Camp atrocities against Japanese Americans during WW2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment
http://www.nps.gov/manz/
The atrocities we did to our own Armed Service Vets with the testing of Nuclear Bombs on Nellis AF Base Nevada and other experiments to US soldiers
http://www.naav.com/
Under The Cloud: The Decades of Nuclear Testing [Paperback]
http://www.amazon.com/Under-Cloud-Decades-Nuclear-Testing/dp/1881043053/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266666050&sr=8-2
The atrocities of testing diseases on African American Soldiers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment
The atrocities we did to Pacific Islanders for US Nuclear Testing
Day of Two Suns: U.S. Nuclear Testing and the Pacific Islanders [Paperback]
http://www.amazon.com/Day-Two-Suns-Nuclear-Islanders/dp/0941533832/ref=pd_sim_b_4
The massive atrocity of the The Atomic Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the killing of 100s of thousands of innocent Japanese citizens who had nothing to do with the War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
The Last Train from Hiroshima: The Survivors Look Back (John MacRae Books) [Hardcover]
http://www.amazon.com/Last-Train-Hiroshima-Survivors-MacRae/dp/0805087966/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266667483&sr=8-3
False Flag Plan: Operation Northwoods, the plan to kill our own troops and blame it Cuba so we could attack Cuba
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/
Accomplished False Flag: The Gulf of Tonkin, got US into the Vietnam War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Incident
Accomplished False Flag: the attack on the USS Liberty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
The CIA project MK-Ultra for mind-control and the development of Manchurian Candidate Assassins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA
The assassination of JFK (lots of overwhelming evidence that rogue elements within our government pulled it off)
The assassination of MLK Jr. (Direct evidence our US government was involved)
An Act of State: The Execution of Martin Luther King [Hardcover]
http://www.amazon.com/Act-State-Execution-Martin-Luther/dp/1859846955/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262053145&sr=1-1
The 13th Juror: The Official Transcript of the Martin Luther King Assassination Conspiracy Trial [Paperback]
http://www.amazon.com/13th-Juror-Transcript-Assassination-Conspiracy/dp/1442112158/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262052503&sr=8-2#noop
What we have done to our Gulf 1, Gulf 2, and Gulf 3 Veterans
9-11-01: plenty of evidence that at the least our government let it happen (LIHOP). Many War Games on 9-11 with that very scenario, Military Stand Down, the evidence can go on and on. But the evidence also shows direct involvement (MIHOP).
2 Illegal Preemptive Wars against countries that had nothing to do with 9-11-01 (Iraq and Afghanistan). The supposed hi-jackers with box-cutter knives were from Saudi Arabia.
What we have done to our Veterans and the people of Iraq and Afghanistan
Beyond Treason:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2205254052040284660#docid=1765761405440797619
The use of Depleted Uranium in weapon systems continues and makes those battle-zone regions of Earth where we leave the DU waste radioactive for the next 4.5 Billion years
http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/mettoc.htm
http://www.cadu.org.uk/intro.htm
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5146778547681767408#
http://www.amvets-ca.org/pdfs/RECA/INTERVIEW%20WITH%20MAJOR%20DOUG%20ROKKE.pdf
Torture by the USA at Abu Ghraib
Torture at the USA Prison, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and the murder of Prisoners at Camp “NO”
The Guantánamo “Suicides”: A Camp Delta sergeant blows the whistle
By Scott Horton
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2010/01/hbc-90006368
Flights of Rendition of Prisoners to countries where torture is allowed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition_by_the_United_States
The recent revelation that our government was involved with medical experiments in which we purposefully gave diseases to Guatemalans.
US Apologizes for Giving Guatemalans Syphilis in 1940s Experiment
Friday, October 01, 2010
By Lauran Neergaard, Associated Press
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/76098
This list could go on and on and on . . .
Nope there is no way our government could possibly be involved with spraying Aluminum and Barium Oxides to try to dim the sunlight hitting the Earth's surface in attempt to act against Global Warming. Nope there is no way this could happen. They would never pollute the environment like that and carry out a massive illegal experiment that could have possible devastating effects to the environment and to our health. Nope they could never do that. They could not possibly be that evil. Sarcasm.
Read your history and read the evidence I have already posted. Don't make me have to hold your hand through it all. Do a little homework.
I have this program. Me thinks the government professes too much. I think that is exactly what they are trying to do, dimm the Sun purposefully.
NOVA: Dimming the Sun
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sun/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sun/contrail.html |
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Oct 10, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
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As a fun little game, google up "logic fallacies" and see if you can identify how many (perhaps all) are on display on this thread. I think this is what riles up the scientists here. People are free to hold whatever not-based-in-facts opinions they want. It is when they try to bolster their claims with misuse of science or, more commonly, flawed chains of logic (e.g. "the government had an evil secret program in the past, therefore my allegation of an evil secret program today must be true") that we object. By the way I'm certain that our government has a bunch of secret programs underway right now that we will be outraged about in 20 years when we finally hear about them.
Me thinks the government professes too much.
It is hard not to laugh out loud at this stuff! The expression is "...PROTESTS too much." It really undermines the case attempting to be made to get so many simple things wrong (usual it is high-school-level physics that gets sadly abused).
[EDIT: In response to the comments in a later post. I thought this quote was supposed to be a take off on the famous quote from Hamlet. Turns out "profess" was the intended word (although I'd argue it is the wrong one for the newly-revealed intent). So, my bad! I retract that criticism. In the response below my reference to high school physics was completely misinterpreted. Of course clearly nothing I said was understood at all as near as I can tell which makes my point perfectly. I think that high school physics is about as good as science gets. You can explain so many every day experiences in the physical world with just a few equations. Truly elegant. My comment here is that in these threads (you know which ones I mean) simple physics concepts are often misused completely as part of the discussions. This is a sad reflection on the state of basic education in the US.]
That statement also makes it clear that no discussion is possible. You find in equal measure on these threads "I think they are protesting too much, we must be getting close to the truth" and "why are they silent on these allegations?--must be a coverup". There is no response to any allegation that will not be used as further evidence for the allegation.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Oct 10, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
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OUT OF THE BLUE
A contrail will form behind a jet if, as exhaust gases cool and mix with surrounding air, the humidity is high enough and the temperature low enough for liquid water to condense. The air needs to be supersaturated and the temperature generally below -40°F, something that typically occurs only in the upper troposphere, the atmospheric layer several miles up where airliners cruise. Under those conditions, water vapor from the jet's exhaust and secondarily from the atmosphere condenses into water droplets. Within a few tens of feet behind the aircraft, these droplets freeze into the snow-white particles that bring the contrail to life.
How long a newly formed condensation trail sticks around depends on the ambient humidity. If humidity is low, contrails will rapidly dissipate, looking like a comet's tail. The ice particles sublimate—meaning go straight from ice to vapor—and you're back to blue sky. If humidity is high, however, contrails can persist—and those are the ones that trouble climatologists.
A LINGERING CONCERN
If conditions are right, newly formed contrails will begin feeding off surrounding water vapor. Like vaporous cancers, they start growing and spreading. In time, they can expand horizontally to such an extent that they become indistinguishable from cirrus clouds, those thin, diaphanous sheets often seen way up high. These artificial cirrus clouds can last for many hours, and the amount of sky they end up covering can be astonishing: one study showed that contrails from just six aircraft expanded to shroud some 7,700 square miles.
this sounds like disinformation, tricked out in a little environmental "concern".
you have to be either an oldtimer or a physical meteorologist to weigh in here.
i'm an oldtimer. these damn chemtrails haven't been around more than 15 years or so. if you grew up during that time, you probably accept a chemtrail-filled sky as a given, a natural, the result of natural conditions along with our increased jet traffic.
but i grew up with different skies and learned to notice the sky ever since. anyone else? my dad took me fishing in the 1950s and i'd spend the whole day in a boat, waiting for the fish to bite. you get plenty of time for sky-watching in the lousy fishing lakes of illinois. something as obvious as a contrail stood out. when one came by, i'd sit there staring, fascinated, until the plane disappeared. chemtrails never happened. if that crap posted up there were true, i'd have noticed chemtrails all through the 50s, 60s and 70s. i learned all the species of clouds, and the midwest had plenty of them. everything was painted on nature's pallette, natural and beautiful. i went from fishing to sailing to canoeing, to skiing to hiking to climbing. chemtrails, the last 15 years. we've had plenty of jet traffic all along. never saw a chemtrail in the days of the 707s, or even after 747s were introduced.
i'm not a physical meteorologist, but i'd like one to expain to me why i shouldn't think that statement is complete bullsh#t. the science of clouds involves dew point. clouds don't "propagate" like that. don't give me supersaturated and supercooled. explain why. i'll give you my explanation as i understand it. when a jet passes through a blue sky, the punch of the exhaust disturbs the air. even though there is tremendous thrust, there is consequently a partial vacuum immediately behind it. that's what causes the condensation, the drop in pressure. the cloud forms and then dissipates a short while later when it returns to the blue-sky, above dewpoint conditions.
even in high humidity, clouds need to have dewpoint manipulated in order to form, usually by updrafts or other massive movements of air. they don't "propagate". that smells like the purest heap of poo-poo.
the disinformation world is such that you get played with no matter what you believe. you learn not to trust even the "proofs" of what you happen to believe in, like svali's lurid revelations about the illuminati.
we've had supposed "secret" pictures circulated on the internet of interiors of chemtrail planes filled with bottles of chemicals and plumbing for spraying. there was an unattributed report about an airport employee who lost his job for questioning the inclusion of secret chemtrail apparatus on commercial flights.
why doesn't it all leak out? because news itself is controlled. i can tell you about that. reporters who start snooping around in unassigned areas 1) get called on the carpet and 2) lose their jobs if they continue. perhaps the biggest proof that there really is something to this chemtrail stuff is that no credible reporter has dug into it, interviewing experts, coming up with something authoritative. when you want to cover something up, you never allow it to get that far. you'll wind up with a real expert making a lot of noise you don't want to hear.
chemtrails do get treated occasionally in the media. there was a report on a regular los angeles television channel, interviewing residents of the big bear lake area who complained about irritation from chemtrails. but never a followup beyond that. the subject has been all over italian television. they call them "sci" (pronounced "she", as for a ski track). italians are used to not being able to do anything about what the powers-that-be dictate. they accept all scandals as open secrets and enjoy good food as long as they can.
what are the chemtrails for? the haarp program is often mentioned. i had an aerospace scientist who purports to be in the know tell me that the barium and aluminum compounds slightly increase the conductivity of the atmosphere for all the haarp devilment that goes on. check out the government haarp page if you don't know about this program for the official story as to what they're up to. for the unofficial story, let your imagination run wild.
other suggestions include weather control--that's one you ought to look into if you like the subject of hidden technologies--and even darker motives such as crop reduction for subsequent population reduction. i don't know why klim even worries, 'cause "he's got the whole world in his hands." enjoy the good food, lad.
i wonder when the sierra club will start developing one of its enviro-ulcers over haarp. when hell clouds over with supercooled supersaturation. could be right around the corner.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Oct 10, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
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It really undermines the case attempting to be made to get so many simple things wrong (usual it is high-school-level physics that gets sadly abused).
Don't be surprised at how many people graduate from high school not understanding basic science. Klimmer works as a science teacher in a public high school teaching Earth Science and Physics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP0mQeLWCCo
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Oct 10, 2010 - 01:35pm PT
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As a fun little game, google up "logic fallacies" and see if you can identify how many (perhaps all) are on display on this thread. I think this is what riles up the scientists here. People are free to hold whatever not-based-in-facts opinions they want. It is when they try to bolster their claims with misuse of science or, more commonly, flawed chains of logic (e.g. "the government had an evil secret program in the past, therefore my allegation of an evil secret program today must be true") that we object. By the way I'm certain that our government has a bunch of secret programs underway right now that we will be outraged about in 20 years when we finally hear about them.
Exactly! I've told Klimmer this many many times on many different threads and his response is for me to focus on the facts....its not the facts i take issue with, its the logic.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2010 - 02:13pm PT
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As a fun little game, google up "logic fallacies" and see if you can identify how many (perhaps all) are on display on this thread. I think this is what riles up the scientists here. People are free to hold whatever not-based-in-facts opinions they want. It is when they try to bolster their claims with misuse of science or, more commonly, flawed chains of logic (e.g. "the government had an evil secret program in the past, therefore my allegation of an evil secret program today must be true") that we object. By the way I'm certain that our government has a bunch of secret programs underway right now that we will be outraged about in 20 years when we finally hear about them.
Mike,
Dr. Bolte, why do you "kick against the pricks?" (By-the-way, that would Jesus saying to Saul in the Bible, referring to his rebelling and protesting against the truth).
Then you go on to admit, "By the way I'm certain that our government has a bunch of secret programs underway right now that we will be outraged about in 20 years when we finally hear about them."
That is pretty contradicting. What am I not getting?
Me thinks the government professes too much.
No, that is exactly what I meant. I was saying it in regards to the NOVA program on The Dimming of the Sun. The government professes (talks about, admits) too much in the DVD. They pretty much give it away. The answer is right there starring us in the face. They are using Aluminum Oxide and Barium dust to dim the Sun. Scientific organizations are having Conferences talking about doing just exactly that. It happened at the AAAS meeting here in San Diego. Apparently a group that knew this was happening also protested the meeting. Watch the trailer for the new DVD that is coming out that I first posted.
That statement also makes it clear that no discussion is possible. You find in equal measure on these threads "I think they are protesting too much, we must be getting close to the truth" and "why are they silent on these allegations?--must be a coverup".
Huh?
No, here I was not saying they are protesting too much. You said that. I said "professing" too much.
In this situation, the government is very quiet about it, and ignoring it, as well as MSM. People are coming up with the evidence, and they are getting the silent treatment. Read the story regarding the Soil Scientist who worked for the US Forest Service, or the Soil Survey. See the kind of reaction he got.
It is hard not to laugh out loud at this stuff! The expression is "...PROTESTS too much." It really undermines the case attempting to be made to get so many simple things wrong (usual it is high-school-level physics that gets sadly abused).
Oh, yea, nice dig at HS physics. Come on.
One place that you are correct:
"Me thinks the US Government does protest too much" is in regards to the recent publication of the Book on Terrorism, where they call out all groups who are using their 1st Amendment rights and asking questions and grieving our Government. By that definition we are all terrorists. What a load of 100% USDA Bovine Dung.
They put all those groups, sayings, phrases, words, definitions in a Book and called it "Terrorism and Criminal Extremism." Yep, me thinks the US Government does protest too much in that regard. Way too much . . .
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1282804&msg=1282804#msg1282804
DoJ Terrorism and Criminal Extremism Terms and Concepts Guide
http://publicintelligence.net/doj-terrorism-and-criminal-extremism-terms-and-concepts-guide/
Here is the actual DoJ download of the Book:
Investigating Terrorism and Criminal Extremism, Terms and Concepts
http://info.publicintelligence.net/DoJTerrorismCriminalExtremismTerms.pdf
Oh, guess what is listed in the book -- Chemtrails!
You can not make this stuff up. People who talk about chemtrails are terrorists! I would cry if it were not so dang funny at face value.
So, that I do not raise any flags at DoJ (too late I probably have raised all of them by now), I will call them "SAG trails." But I'm sure in the next edition they'll list that too.
Dang, you just can't win.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 10, 2010 - 03:08pm PT
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GC's last photo is cymbalic of something or other.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2010 - 03:12pm PT
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GC,
Since some people don't want me to say Wake Up!
I might have to steal that last cute image from you.
Thanks for posting that. lol.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Oct 10, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
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You're welcome, Klimmer!
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Oct 10, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
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You can not make this stuff up.
Acutally, you can. You're doing it right now.
so, that I do not raise any flags at DoJ (too late I probably have raised all of them by now), I will call them "SAG trails." But I'm sure in the next edition they'll list that too.
This is a classic delusion of grandeur. No one at DOJ gives a sh#t about what you post of Supertopo. You're a HIGH SCHOOL science teacher. Get over yourself.
That is pretty contradicting. What am I not getting?
Once again, you've completely misunderstood the argument Mike's making. You have a talent for making high level connections between events but have extreme difficulty with formal logic.
What your're missing is that there is DIRECT EVIDENCE, detailed WITNESSES TESTATMONY, and CONFESSION of the said events. You've provided, maybe, one of the above. And what you have provided is EXTREMELY questionable. Your sources are very very poor....i.e. a 4th grade science project!!!!! Its in your video. Don't deny it.
Could you be right about Chemtrails? YES! I'll be the first to say it. But you rely on weak data and giant leaps in logic to arrive at your conclusions. Take a break from science and go take a philosophy of logic course. It'll open your eyes.
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Oct 10, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
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It's funny how no one will just go outside with a camera and look up. Even Kilmmer cant be bothered.
Here are some photos from the north Cascades, eastern Washington & Seattle. If you just go out before the front moves in you can watch the planes doing the arasol spraying. Cloud seeding Also sun shading. All the rest is crazy talk. Remember that what you dont read or hear about is most often what is really going on. My theory is that it has to do with Monsanto. You never hear of CTs and the evil one in the same sentence.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 10, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
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