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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Nov 23, 2005 - 03:34pm PT
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Dingus, you're the first person I've heard articulate it the same way I do. I am kind of shocked. Thanks!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 23, 2005 - 03:40pm PT
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My wife's tribe and many indigenious peoples around the world have for aeons held essentially the same beliefs Dingus conveys...
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Nov 23, 2005 - 03:52pm PT
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DMT. It works. It is easy to arrive at this type of statement.
You can strip away the parallel universe interpretations or conjectures of QM, or you can add in strings, quantized lengths and all the other trappings of physics from the last 30 years.
But in the end, it is a bit like saying "God is all of that which we both do, and do not yet, fully understand scientifically", which unfortunately is a tautological statement - making it a bit empty for further analysis.
I was playing with this earlier, with the "God is an invention of man..." you need only replace the second "man" with "universe" and you sort of end up here. Of course, that is both tautological and a bit self-referential.
A while back there were researchers investigating the existence of a "spiritual gene". (Personally I think that perhaps they should be looking for a gene for highly abstract thinking instead.) I have not followed that since, but it was the foundation for the thinking I laid out earlier in this thread on the origin of religion. It is at least potentially testable in the foreseeable future.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 23, 2005 - 04:13pm PT
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Here, Dingus and I are on exactly the same page: I have faith in gravity, the speed of light, hydrogen-based thermal systems (stars), carbon-based, self-replicating organic systems (DNA/Speciation), and photo/chemo-synthesis. I believe all life, including us, is simply the global pool of DNA attempting to express and propogate itself optimally for the current conditions on the planet. Everything else is gravy.
What I can't abide is the demonstrable effects of organized religion - genocide, racism, sexism, etc. Organized religion is possibly one of the more abominable things we do as a species. Here Dingus and I part company, I view religion with a deep suspicion born out of millenniums of despicable and oppressive behavior on the part of almost all of the world's religions. That people don't research or question the historical record and actions of their religions is somewhat astounding to me.
"There is no god" is open at all times to evidence to the contrary, it is simply a case of none showing up so far...
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426
Sport climber
Another Slopey Nightmare, TN
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Nov 23, 2005 - 04:15pm PT
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"Who the F--K cares?!"
Most of 'yer party', for one...
Gott mit uns?
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Nov 23, 2005 - 04:21pm PT
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"There is no god" is no much more open to analysis though, right?
Logically speaking, this is a statement whose truth is unknown, or at least debatable - and is not a tautology. It is very open, since it leaves open the very definition of god.
The other statement is logically always true, since it defines god.
But, I believe, the gist of what you are saying is that analysis is pointless. For you and me, it is pointless, since from experience, we know that the ensuing discussion will be fruitless. It will end up in all sort of assertions that ultimately will be grounded purely on belief and not testable hypotheses or facts.
It is not that the analysis can't be done. It is that there are few who actually are capable of doing it. The ones who are generally would find the discussion pointless. Those who aren't, well...
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pc
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2005 - 04:22pm PT
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Dingus,
Of course it is. That's the title of this thread and the "essay" but only a part of the statement. It started with "I believe..." and went on to state the reasons and facts behind that belief. Please let's not go back to the belief vs faith thing.
That discussion was sidetracked by Jody's thumping but I thought the author made some nice points around why he doesn't need/want God in his life.
Raises an interesting question. Would we (humans) be better off now if there'd never been Gods?
 Is the "stabilizing force" of Gods better for "us" than the divisiveness Gods create?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 23, 2005 - 04:28pm PT
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Largo,
With regard to your specific question above, as Dingus says, yes, I can imagine and read about other "more difficult to percieve" aspects to our universe/life such as he mentions, i.e. dimensions beyond the four we experience, and I can envision that other forms of intelligent life exist and share our universe in forms we can't necessarily imagine. But I don't believe in any "cognitive" entity divorced from some form of [roughly organic] "biological" systems. Might some form of inorganic "life"/intelligence have evolved somewhere, possibly but I doubt it. In any case I don't believe any other life forms out there have anything to do with us other than sharing a ride in neighboring time/space. If you mean any type of overarching, universe-wide intelligence, then no, I don't and can't really imagine or envision one as I can't imagine a phyical basis for such an entity.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 23, 2005 - 04:54pm PT
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Tradsgood said: "Largo, you need to firm up your thinking a bit."
The point is, what I'm driving at has nothing to do with your or my thinking, and when I said, "Can you imagine," I was not suggesting that what I'm driving at is "imagined" and not real.
Yet another way is to ask: Can you imagine anything to be real that is not a "thing," some aspect "produced" by material. I use the word "imagine" because our logical/rational minds, A) require some material thing to latch onto, and B) a thing that is not a thing (for lack of suitable language) is necessarily illogical and irrational.
A starting point here is to just notice how your rational mind either blows this off as nonsense (non-quantifiable, therefore not "real"), or scrambles to cram it into a form you can wrangle with.
What do you suspect would happend if for just an hour you could step out of that process and you were simply there? Aside from you rational mind scrambling to figure it out, what else??
This stuff is a little like free soling. Our entire psyches are built so you never step out of the "figure it out" mode. If you ever do, you'll never forget it, that's for sure.
JL
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Hootervillian
climber
the Ponderosa, NV
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Nov 23, 2005 - 05:24pm PT
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What do you suspect would happend if for just an hour you could step out of that process and you were simply there? Aside from you rational mind scrambling to figure it out, what else??
With that process hardwired to our limited sensory receptors, sounds like a job for the sensory deprivation tank.
I'm more of an 'Eddie Jessup' than a 'Mason Parish'.
How do you do it?
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426
Sport climber
Another Slopey Nightmare, TN
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Nov 23, 2005 - 06:01pm PT
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...now that's obscure.
I think I'm more Obispo~generally, a little hesistant to sacrifice for 'true' science...(or was it something else?)...
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Nov 23, 2005 - 06:10pm PT
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Largo, If you haven't read it... Gödel, Escher and Bach - The Eternal Golden Braid. Lots of examples of thinking about things that are not "real" or concrete. Math, music, art, discussed here.
The ability to think abstractly, to use language to discuss language, for example, I believe is still thought to be a uniquely human characteristic.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 23, 2005 - 06:31pm PT
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John,
You would have to be clearer still, at least for my simple mind. If you mean some form of ethereal, self-propagating, entity or "thing" detached from all material "reality" or form (including all four forces of strong, electromagnetic, weak, and gravity) then my answer would be a pretty decisive no, I can not. Ideas are limitless, but require vessels for propogation and transport. An "idea" self-sustaining and self-propogating in this or any other universe is a fairly romantic notion but it stops there for me, but then I'm a pretty literal, "show me" sort of person.
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AndyG
climber
San Diego, CA
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Nov 23, 2005 - 07:36pm PT
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"Well, I personally believe the role and influence of schizophrenia in shaping social/"spiritual" rituals is greatly underestimated. ....
And these are just physically manifest rituals, many researchers in the field have suspicions about the origins of the visions of many "witch doctors", messiahs, and spiritual leaders - and of the roots of their overwhelming charisma and drive. I tend to throw in with this crowd and when I hear the stories of Bah'u'll'h (the Bab), Joseph Smith, or other such stories where someone had a "vision". "
Not to mention Jesus. Maybe he was just a schizophrenic. In the converse, a central tenent of Christianity is that Jesus will return at some point. What happens when he does? He'll start telling people he is the Messiah and they will send him off to the doctor and "cure" him of his schizophrenia. As a matter of fact, a number of years ago someone I knew did exactly that. Started claiming that he was the Messiah, having visions. They put him in an institution for a little while, gave him some good drugs and now he is a productive member of society - married with children, etc. Maybe he really was the Messiah! We f--ked up! Now he will never deliver us. He's livin' in suburbia, working the 9-to-5!
Andy
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 23, 2005 - 07:46pm PT
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The funny part of this whole dicussion is that neither side has "the proof" to convince the other.
I tend to agree with Healyje on this issue. Good dicussion...so far.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 23, 2005 - 09:25pm PT
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Healyje wrote: "John,You would have to be clearer still, at least for my simple mind. If you mean some form of ethereal, self-propagating, entity or "thing" detached from all material "reality" or form (including all four forces of strong, electromagnetic, weak, and gravity) then my answer would be a pretty decisive no, I can not. Ideas are limitless, but require vessels for propogation and transport. An "idea" self-sustaining and self-propogating in this or any other universe is a fairly romantic notion but it stops there for me, but then I'm a pretty literal, "show me" sort of person."
I'm hesitant to jump into this, not wanting to come off as a jackass or a vague, hemp sodden ew age kook. But let me give this a few minutes and offer a few ideas relative to the above quote, which I trust was honestly presented.
I would venture to say that when you refer to yourself as a "show me" kind of person, what you're really declaring is your almost totaly identification to your rational mind. As I suggested earlier, when I touched on this stuff, peoples rational mind would immediately try and frame what I said in a context that you already know or are comfortable with. I used the word "thing." What you've done is to simply try and imagine another kind or specie of "thing," one "detached from all material "reality" or form (including all four forces of strong, electromagnetic, weak, and gravity." Since you're hunkered down in the rational mind, and the rational mind can only grasp "things," something other than a thing cannot exist, according to the rational mind.
Rather than try and describe a non-thing, you might find it interesting sometime to lie down on your bed and separate out your awareness from your rational mind. In other words, allow yourself (don't "try") to watch your rational mind. Just witness it. IME, that's really the starting point to the whole enchilada. At very least, notice how quickly your awareness become fused with your thoughts, then paradoxically, you will notice this has happened and will have some separation again, and then the fusion will happen yet again. The exercise is not to try and stop the thoughts, rather to stabalize your awareness separte from the thoughts. Once you can do this, eventually you will have your first direct experience of "something that is not a thing."
Be aware that this is not something you "do."
It's free soloing all the way. Every move, so it's the greatest adventure on earth.
JL
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 23, 2005 - 10:03pm PT
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John,
I don't think your a kook of any type, but just another explorer, albiet in different realms. As I posted once [briefly] I long ago did a series/set of directed acid trips each with a different specific goal in mind over a nine week period (every third day). Several were directed at the "fusion" type of state you speak of and over the years I've approached experiencing states such as I believe you are speaking of from a number of differing approaches from some similar to what you describe, to sensory depravation, to meditation, to employing various physical/mental activities (yoga, long-distance swimming/running, sex, hours on highlines, etc.). I've been in some interesting "states" and spaces over the years (haven't we all...) but to be completely honest I can't really escape the "material vessel" aspect of all such experiential enterprises however esoteric and remarkable. I find it quite a leap to posit or imply that such "states" might exist independent from us, the material vessels or crucibles for the experiences.
Along with being quite literal part of my background is in microbiology and genetics and I personally view all organisms from viruses on up and the attending "information" and "communication" capabilities they variously exhibit to be "miraculous" in and of themselves - even at a intra/inter-cellular level. Again, that we can think, dream, and emote is all gravy to me. The search for "more" only has so much appeal to me as I am so completely stunned and amazed at the communication and information capacity (and speed) of a simple prion here on Earth without looking too far a field for yet more amazing "things". So I'm not necessarily the perfect candidate for the question at hand but I am so glad someone somewhere is exploring all aspects of our existence. That religion attempts to "plug" all the unknowns of our existense with dowels and pegs of ethological claptrap instead of real knowledge is exactly why I view it as so dangerous.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 23, 2005 - 10:24pm PT
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Hey, Healyje--
"I find it quite a leap to posit or imply that such "states" might exist independent from us, the material vessels or crucibles for the experiences."
How can the "state" exist independent from you when you're experiencing said state? But I'm not talking about "states" here, because I'm not talking about "content," or the stuff that your genetics and conditioning keeps churning up into our awareness. That's all sensory and memory based stuff. That's what's shows up on the EEG.
In one sense, it's totally different than that. When I said, "Watch your rational mind and allow your awareness to separte from it" I meant, let your awareness separate out from the content, including the states.
Hope you have some time to give the exercise a go. It's pretty interesting, even though the rational mind in interested only in content and states and stuff to talk about.
This is about the "being" in Human Being, which is not a thing but a process . . .
JL
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 23, 2005 - 10:38pm PT
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John,
Again, trust me as to the non-content experience - been there [not] "done" that as it were. Have spent plenty of time simply "being". While quite something, I'm not sure where you are going with this other than it being quite something...
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 23, 2005 - 10:40pm PT
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Why is there no God?
If you say "there is no God?"
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