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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jun 28, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
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got any kids, wade?
32 this semester. And 40- 60 parents who want to hold me responsible for shaping their 20 something kids' already fully formed intellects. I don't teach Theology, Philosophy or Natural Sciences and don't have a dog in any of those races. I convey information apropos to the curriculum and try to, above all give them the opportunity to think for themselves.
I'm curious/confused by this:
my wife and i understand the bad things that are going on in the world, and we can't even talk about them around the dinner table with our own children, now into their 20s. information bias at work again, and at least part of it comes from a steady diet of half-truths.
Are you saying that you refuse to discuss the bad things happening?
Are you saying that your kids refuse to discuss the bad things happening?
Are you saying that your kids don't know about the bad things happening?
That they are deceived by steady diet of half-truths?
As for this:
even if you're wrong in what you teach, i'd rather have my kids pick up on it and discuss it at home. they'll learn when someone is sincere. the message you're giving with all that equivocation is "i can't do anything and someday you won't be able to either"
How does this square with not trusting your kids intellects with X teacher?
Interesting discussion.
Going to be a hot one today. You a baseball fan Tony?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jun 28, 2010 - 05:24pm PT
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Damn, I wish I hadn't posted up there. Reilly, you should consider starting a new upskirt (OT) thread. These beauties will get lost here.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 28, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
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i meant kids of your own, wade.
you probably won't think i'm very special either, but one night at the teacher conferences my wife and i told the english teacher she could just take a break for our time and relax and talk about anything she wanted. i think i saw tears in her eyes.
if i didn't explain it well enough, our kids don't want to hear about a whole list of subjects that are currently off the dinner table. we trusted their intellects to homogenized curricula taught by the timid, and that, with lots of help from peer pressure, made them into rosy-sunglassed yuppies. i'll grant you that it isn't healthy for the young to be too cynical. god's in his heaven, all's right with the world, as a seven-year-old sweatshop worker once put it. and things change. i can actually talk to my son now about a few of those subjects privately. it took a small crisis to get there.
the kids did come away from lausd with a valuable life skill. when things got out of hand, they'd get pretty thick with their peers. they learned to work the shortcuts and not take any of it too seriously.
baseball indeed. i do mountain sports, a little woodworking and some amateur music scholarship. scholarship here doesn't mean money to pay to teachers. it means investing in the pleasure of your own learning, which is probably the furthest thing from anyone's thoughts in that sweatshop called school. learning? pleasure? gimme a break, right? i read books on a variety of subjects, but not sports trivia, which i leave to the great intellects for which it is intended.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 29, 2010 - 03:57pm PT
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wade, little queries like that one about baseball, with a major sermon attached--a great classroom technique, i'm sure, but it irritates fellow adults to no end.
i'll be frank. i think you've developed a major attitude problem about parents. i don't know the first thing about what you teach and how you teach it, so let's assume you're one of the best in that way.
klim and i go back a bit on these threads. klim has rather strange beliefs from my point of view, but we agree on the basic premise of 9/11 truth: it was a false flag-type operation, something with much precedent in history, involving the top levels of our government. google operation northwoods, such things have been cooked up before.
klim teaches public school science in spite of personal belief in things like bible codes and aliens hovering around the planet, toying what we do. correct me if i'm wrong, klim. i don't have much use for that stuff. klim is also a devout christian and he subscribes to an interpretation of evolution which he can't really broach in a public school classroom.
this is an important issue. my kids had a pretty good biology teacher in high school who confided that the sharp kids of fundy parents were driving him nuts. i think i was able to help him a bit with my knowledge of teilhard's scientific process theology. i also put him on to stephen jay gould, for which he seemed deeply grateful, and ironically, several years later here, it looks like the gould/conway-morris debate might be just the ticket for defusing this hot little potato. if you guys have the guts to get into it, that is.
it may take klim awhile to catch up on all this, so i've suggested that in the meantime he stop walking his uncomfortable tightrope and seek out a good christian school where they'll be comfortable with him and maybe he'll be able to grow a little better both as a teacher and a philosopher. just a suggestion, of course. i get the feeling he gets a bit frazzled. and the cut in pay might be one of biblical proportions.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 29, 2010 - 07:16pm PT
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not at all, wade. i wasn't going to make a point of the issue, but you're pressing it.
and always remember, everyone is welcome here on 9/11 tintime. tell your friends to log in!
now let's see if i've got this right. you as a teacher are generally blaming parents for not assuming enough responsibility for the upbringing of their kids. you're trying to tell us that parents expect too much of teachers. i'm assuming this is because of the hard times parents have given you.
i've tried to explain what i said to klimmer, but you want to grind the ax some more, so here we go. i've had occasionally positive interactions with so-called certified teachers, but not a few negative ones as well. "attitude" is something one expects of adolescents, but it shows up in teachers a lot. hey, it rubs off of the kids. i wouldn't want your job. i try to understand. i think it's a nasty, out-of-control system in which education suffers and kids hardly ever learn that important lesson that there is pleasure in learning. i wonder whether you've learned it yourself.
you've made a career of other people's kids, and you've chosen to have none yourself, in the name of population reduction. that would all be well, but i think you picked up a chip on your shoulder in the process. zpg, the way it was originally conceived, was an advocacy of zero population growth. that doesn't mean population reduction, which is what china's going after, and probably high time. for your information, my wife and i adhered quite intentionally to the zpg ethic in having two children. when we die, we shall have left two children behind, which is zero population growth. if it's a worthwhile ethic, perhaps our kids will be interested as well. it's one of those things you teach by example, an important part of parenting. sometimes you don't have to say a word.
i don't think it's possible to be a very good critic of the fears and concerns and emotions of parenthood without experiencing them yourself. what you've been experiencing is understandably wearing you down because you're on the receiving end of the negative aspects of those things. the fact that you can't seem to tolerate the irrationality speaks to your lack of understanding.
school ought to be about learning, not babysitting. if you want that to back that up a little, get parents to do more of their own babysitting, i'll agree wholeheartedly with that. in order to do that, you'll have to reorder daily routines quite a bit through some truly bold reforms. where there's a will, there's a way, but there isn't a will right now. my suggestion, on education and a lot of other issues, is the up-ending of a basically oppressive, recalcitrant and irrational system of power masquerading as democracy. and the key to that, wade, might be found in doing a little homework on the subject of this thread.
since you seem to think you've trespassed over here, do us a favor and answer a question, just as a thought experiment, if it's possible. try to assume that we 9/11 cranks have found some truth in what we're talking about. what would your reaction to that be, as a teacher? ignore it? proclaim it and lose your job? i know a prominent teacher who has. tone it down and feed it with lots of sugar? is that even possible?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 29, 2010 - 09:34pm PT
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rok, i think most presidents commit treason. it goes with the compromises they have to make in coming to power, keeping that power, all the dirty crap they learn about and keep silent about, and responding to the broad pressures of geopolitics. they don't act for america--there's a secret international system going and most americans, whether they're in the heartland or not, just don't want to take a look at it. the proverbial elephant in the living room.
fdr allowed the pearl harbor attack so that we would be drawn into the war, calling it a "day of infamy" that would live on. oh, yes. john kennedy, on the other hand, tried valiantly to fight the system. he knew the risk he was taking coming down on operation northwoods, and he paid for it. give the poor guy an A for the best effort in our lifetimes.
i know all about the liberty incident. i have a good friend who demonstrates for it in front of the israeli consulate. johnson is rumored to have said, "i want that ship on the bottom of the ocean" with all its sailors giving their lives so as not to embarrass israel, or whatever the dark motive was, which i doubt we're going to determine for awhile, if ever.
how do you teach such things? i was hoping (not too much) to hear from wade. some manage, up to a point, my brother among them, as i mentioned. it isn't easy, but i don't think you should be in a classroom, middle school or later, if you're afraid of controversy.
one of the problems with the unnatural shelter given the teaching profession is that they've developed a sense of entitlement to their jobs which the rest of us don't have. you can't fire a teacher for being a lousy teacher, or just because you want to hire a better one. you sure can do all that in the private sector. i've had my sorry ass fired many times. it helps you figure out what you're really good at and what you need to learn.
i mentioned the fella who lost his job, and it bears some detail here. stephen jones was professor of physics at brigham young university. he's a devout mormon and i certainly don't share his religious beliefs, but he knows his science and it's probably all the more careful because of sincere religious beliefs which he knows are not shared by everyone. he's been prominent in physics, having published an article with colleagues in scientific american on the variations of cold fusion, helping to sort out that little flap of 20-some years ago. jones has some of the most sophisticated evidence out there on the wtc, the use of nanothermite, the presence of iron microspheres, the analysis of metallurgical issues. byu came down hard on him.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Jun 29, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
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Glad to know you've got it all figured out Tony.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jun 29, 2010 - 10:08pm PT
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you're assuming a great deal Tony.
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Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
the pitch above you
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Jun 29, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
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More legs, please. This thread is becoming worthless as it goes on.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jun 29, 2010 - 11:47pm PT
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Hey guys,
I mean . . . really . . . thanks for all the career advice. I mean REALLY . . . THANKS . . . (dripping sarcasm). Can we stop now?
I'm very happy teaching in public school. Everyone walks a tight-rope no matter what job they do. (By the way, I have a slack chain in my backyard that I hop on often so I'm pretty good at it.)
By the way Tony, teaching at a religious University, and being a devout Mormon didn't help PhD Steven Jones at BYU, when he came out with 9-11 Truth and discovered and announced incendiaries and controlled demolition brought down the WTC towers. He had to take an early retirement.
Tony, I'm very content with Theistic Evolution. I talk about the mechanics of Evolution just the same as a Darwinian Evolutionist. No different. Yea, I can't come out and say I think GOD controls it and manipulates it, but that is the only difference. Besides, as I explained many, many times before, science can only deal with Scientific Hypotheses. They have to be testable. The last time I looked, or checked, GOD isn't gonna come down and allow himself to be measured, tested, and studied.
Back to what this thread is about . . .
By the way, John Bachar would have posted this image in this thread at some point in time. Sure miss him. In honor and memory of JB . . .
Now, no matter who you are, whether you are a teacher or not, everyone needs to be taught this first and foremost, and then they need to do it!
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 30, 2010 - 01:40am PT
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The last time I looked, or checked, GOD isn't gonna come down and allow himself to be measured, tested, and studied.
You completely contradict your self.
God can be measured although the measurements will be unlimited.
God can be tested.
God can be studied. If you can't study him how will you ever know him although you will never come to a complete end to know him.
If these can not be done then you might as well say there is no God.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Jun 30, 2010 - 03:08am PT
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One thing that can be frustrating with people who seem to actually scream "think for yourself" is that they are normally calling me an idiot for thinking differently then they are.
Thinking for ourselves means believing what we wish to. Personally I think that whole "Think for yourselves" bit contradicts everything you've spoken about religion. You follow "his" words, the book, and prophets or pastors. Who are you to tell someone to think for themselves?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 30, 2010 - 08:52am PT
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klim, i knew you weren't going to take my advice. it's fun trying to make you suffer. i'll get better at it.
btw, they work darn hard at measuring god at fermilab and cern. einstein tried to know god's thoughts and no one seems to think that was blasphemy. god gets studied into the ground at every church, synagogue, seminary, temple, mosque, sunday school and bible class in the world. and god gets tested every time you pray.
bachar was into 9/11?
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pa
climber
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Jun 30, 2010 - 10:09am PT
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"bachar was into 9/11?"
Very much so...as well as the Federal Reserve/J.P. Morgan/Rockfeller complex.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jun 30, 2010 - 11:23am PT
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The last time I looked, or checked, GOD isn't gonna come down and allow himself to be measured, tested, and studied.
You completely contradict your self.
God can be measured although the measurements will be unlimited.
God can be tested.
God can be studied. If you can't study him how will you ever know him although you will never come to a complete end to know him.
If these can not be done then you might as well say there is no God
WB,
I think you know what I mean.
GOD does not abide by what the scientific community would want him to do to validate his existance. They usually say things like, "Unless I can see him for myself and emperically measure and test and prove GOD, then I'm not going to ever believe." GOD doesn't work that way. He requires that we exercise faith. But he does provide evidence. Evidence that the scientific community can not dispute, but that they have an incredible hard time wrapping their brains around, and therefore try to dismiss it out of hand, but can't.
Outside of doing that, yes, there are many ways to validate GOD and prove he is whom he says he is: his Word "The Good Book," fullfillment of Prophecy, Bible Code, the Shroud of Turin and the actaul face of Christ (see the History Channel special called: "The Real Face of Jesus", truly an amazing program based on science. It is a very powerful witness), "The Star of Bethleham" an amazing discovery within the world of Astronomy and using Keplar's Laws of Planetary Motion and a computer program called "Starry Night." Also the amazing discoveries within the World of Biblical Archeology also validates the historical accuracy of the Word of GOD. More evidence and revelation continues day by day, and year by year. Much more prophecy to be fulfilled in the coming near future.
I personally am more than convinced. Yes, I have to exercise faith, but a great deal now is also based on incredible but real evidence that I can not dispute. Therefore, I believe. In fact, so much so, that I cannot ever go back. For me not to beliveve in GOD and beliveve in his Son Jesus Christ, my personal Lord and Savior, would be impossible. I know and have experienced far too much, thankfully and happily I might add.
OK, so back on topic:
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 30, 2010 - 11:37am PT
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any old bachar posts on ST about that?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jun 30, 2010 - 11:46am PT
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Tony,
Type "Bachar" into the search engine for ST at the top right corner.
You are gonna have to scroll through many posts until you get to one by Bachar himself. But once you find his actual last posts, then click on his name and you should now be able to see his archive of all his posts.
I'm hoping it is all still there.
This is a very good tool and why I like ST so much. You can actually search someone's posts and see what stories they have told through time here in ST. Prety cool.
I would think that Chris Mac would leave Bachar's posts here on ST so we can all go back and read them.
His last post was about the US's poor treatment of Native North American's. I think it was that day or the next and he left us sadly.
So, maybe search Bachar and Native American's or something like that and you should find his last posts and then you can go from there.
Edit:
I found Bachar's last post and thread he started: "4th of You Lie"
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=895048&tn=140
Then click on Bachar's avatar:
http://www.supertopo.com/inc/view_profile.php?dcid=Ozk6Pzw3PiY,
Now you can search Bachar's posts.
Chris Mac thanks for this tool. One of the best things about ST!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 30, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
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I love the claim that "no steel-framed building has ever collapsed from fire".
Duh, no steel-framed building has ever had 20,000 GALLONS of jet fuel ignited inside it.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 30, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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back up there midway through klim's last post, reilly. that's building 7 going down quick. no jet fool.
i love that babe, but i found out she's a russian olympian, not jailbait at someone's high school track meet. russian olympic women's shot put contestants have a hard time making it into largo's hot female athlete thread.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Jun 30, 2010 - 12:15pm PT
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And if it wasn't Jet fuel........
Was it explosives?
Who put them there?
When did they put them there?
Where did they get the explosives from?
Who ignited the explosives?
How were the explosives placed?
What kind of explosives were used?
How much explosive material was used?
Where did it come from?
Is anyone missing tons of explosive material?
How was it transported to the World Trade Towers?
Who paid for the explosive material?
How long did it take to place the explosives?
How many people were involved in placing the explosives?
How many people were involved in the conspiracy?
I'd love to know.....
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