Assistance Needed Identifying Old Chouinard-Frost Piolet

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Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Dec 8, 2014 - 07:17am PT
RDB: The first time I saw a Chouinard Piolet was Sept. 1971, when Harry & I ponied up some of our summer earnings and took the Rainier Mountain Guides snow & ice climbing school. An attendee from California had a brand new Piolet. I remember using it for a short top-roped vertical glacier climb. Its pick sunk into the hard snow & stayed in, whereas the straight-pick on my Stubai Nanga Parbat axe would slide right back out.

My old store in Moscow was selling the Chouinard Piolet when I bought into it in June 1973. The Chouinard NW rep., Dale Day, showed me a sample of the new 1974 Piolet early fall 1973, and I held off on buying one until the version I own showed up in early 1974.
RDB

Social climber
wa
Dec 8, 2014 - 09:54am PT
Wonderful post for the timing on sales Fritz.

'69 and '72 on seem pretty sorted out in my mind. 1970 and '71 availability are what really interest me.

It is the early production years I wish we had more info on.

Doug Robinson sez:
" the catalog date of introduction of the Piolet is listed as 1969. And by October of that year Yvon delivered to me on the edge of the Palisade Glacier the hickory-handled 70 cm one (and that hand-forged Alpine Hammer) that we put to good use on the V-Notch the next day.......He was very intent on letting me know in no uncertain terms about Scottish primogeniture of the droop. Others listening agreed. May have even said that YC had come through Scotland to take in their development. "

Your comment on using a Piolet in 1971 helps that search along. Any recollection of that axe's shaft material?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 8, 2014 - 10:04am PT
I could swear that I had a bamboozle by '71. I can't recall having any other sort
although I might have had a 70cm hickory before I got a 55 baboon.
Ain't no flatlander

climber
Dec 8, 2014 - 10:15am PT
A lot of nonsense here about rivets, teeth, and logos. My 70cm Chouinard-Frost with rexilon has 3 rivets, the newer square CAMP logo, and no secondary set of teeth until I added them with a file. Bought it in fall of '76 in at Hudson Bay Outfitters in DC.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Dec 8, 2014 - 10:34am PT
^^^Lol

Which is pretty good evidence their prices were too high. It took them three years to turn that piece of inventory. And they used to buy up old gear from other shops around the NE.

If you bought a toothed Piolet in 1973 you would have a story.
RDB

Social climber
wa
Dec 8, 2014 - 11:25am PT
Reilly do you remember where you bought yours? Swallow's Nest was such a cool place. And the early REI on Capital Hill of course.

But I came late to the party in 1969. Never been in a "real" climbing store till then.

First Piolets I remember seeing were @ Selkirk Bergsport in Spokane. May be '71 but more likely Fall of '72 now that I think about it. Bought a Stubia from REI first. Spring of '73. I remember the bamboo Piolet being $35? That seem right? Do remember they were a lot more than the Stubia! Had to sell the Stubia to buy the Piolet ;-)

Met Fritz winter of '73/74 climbing ice in Canada.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 8, 2014 - 11:31am PT
Swallow's Nest, of course. Even when I worked for The Evil Empire I had
to go to The Nest for The Business.

Funny side story:
I spent two days outfitting a Mexican expedition to go to Aconcagua in '74 IIRC.
They had really deep pockets so the second day I suggested I take them to
lunch in the U District. Yes, I do enjoy being devious.

"Oh, since we're close to the Swallow's Nest let's drop by and see what they have!"

I'm pretty sure they made Bill's month, if not quarter!
RDB

Social climber
wa
Dec 8, 2014 - 11:44am PT
Reilly good story! When were you climbing in Scotland?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 8, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
'78 on the way 'back' from the Pamirs. I traded my bamboo 55 Coonyard
to a Rooskie for some titanium screws IIRC as I was swinging a Terro and a
Forrest 55 on the Ben. My knuckles still hurt.
dustyrat

Trad climber
Leeds, West Yorkshire
Dec 8, 2014 - 01:34pm PT

Thanks for the interest and suggestions however thought I might provide some more detail to help with the identification.

Here is a three rivet, classic bamboo handled piolet with the older camp logo / manufacturer's stamp for comparison.

Whilst the Ash/Hickory handled piolet has a shallower radius, both picks are the same width and depth, even at the shallow groves located where the bamboo has secondary teeth.

On the Chouinard Frost stamped side of the Ash/Hickory, there is also a number 2 stamped adjacent to the C stamp.

Both axes have the same 6mm point to point teeth shape, highlighted on the engineering drawing. Note: the engineering drawing show a different number of teeth, dated Dec '69, revised Sept '74.

Interestingly, the notches on the Ash/Hickory piolet are also 6mm apart, and there seems to be a number 1 stamped between the second and third notch.

On that basis, I'm not sure I subscribe to the theory that the previous owner ground the pick down. Was this a Codega produced sample?

C


Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Dec 8, 2014 - 03:36pm PT
Boy! The more I look at those two axes the more the droop on the pick looks different.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Dec 9, 2014 - 08:07am PT
Chris- Measure the height of the pick at the area where the mystery notches are. Looking at the axe in question, the stamps are off center and shifted down which would indicate removal of metal in that area rather than simple strike marks for future teeth grinding.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 9, 2015 - 08:34am PT
Since I recently got my claws on a Rexilon Piolet, I want to review what folks on this thread have mentioned on that subject and answer some unanswered questions.

The ONLY Chouinard / The great Pacific Ironworks catalogs that Rexilon shafts show up in are the 1975-76 catalogs with the cover photo of Machapuchare.


Unfortunately, the Bradley Alpinist website has erronious information on the Rexilon Piolet. Since Chouinard had moved on to metal shaft axes by 1977-78, the Bradley timeline was rejected earlier, on this thread.

From Bradley: http://www.bradleyalpinist.com/cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=28&zenid=THUEpKNuYgmhv1iC4otdJ3
This change was first seen in the 1978 catalog, even though Tom Frost had left the company years earlier, in 1975. Other designs of the Piolet included a version with two sections of teeth or notches(double-toothed) on the drooped and curved pick. In other modifications, the shaft material changed again, first to a laminated hickory, then laminated ash for a short time, and eventually a synthetic called Rexilon in 1979, after the UIAA began to raise concerns with the integrity of "wooden" axe shafts.

There has been some discussion on this thread about what type of wood was used to make Rexilon.

From very knowledgeable climber/gear collector/historian: RDB aka Dane Burns:
The Rexilon shaft on Chouinard ice axes was made of a laminate of 18-layers of beech ("faggio" in Italian). It was originally used for pole-vaulting poles in the days before fiberglass composites. CAMP used this before bamboo but both were available for a while."

From Chouinard insider/living climbing legend DR / Doug Robinson:

My memory can make swiss cheese look comparatively like solid granite, but as I recall: Rexilon = laminated hickory.

I have been unable to find any information on what wood was used in Rexilon on the internet, so I asked D.D., who was Chouinard’s Northwest Sales Representative from about 1973-1980.

His response:
Rexilon handles on Interalp/Chouinard ice axes were made from hardwood Beech laminates inpregnated with resin to make them stronger and absord less moisture.

Any other knowledgeable insiders with a different opinion?

It is well known that the Rexilon Piolets were heavier than the laminated bamboo Piolets, but by how much? I weighed my 70 Cm. bamboo Piolet & my 70 Cm Rexilon Piolet.
Bamboo 868 grams = 1 lb 14.6 oz.
Rexilon 931 grams = 2 lbs 0.8 oz.
A difference of only 2.2 oz.

And now some photos:

The Rexilon sandwiched between two Chouinard Laminated bamboo axes.


The head of this Rexilon axe is stamped Chouinard Frost, which is a slight surprize, since later Piolets were "Frost free."



Here's some detail photos of the Rexilon shaft. The closely spaced grain structure changes considerably on the oval sides of the shaft below the pick & adze.



Remaining questions?
1. Does anyone have a Rexilon Piolet that only has Chouinard on the head, "Frost free"?
2. Any Chouinard or Interalp insiders with more knowledge of what wood Rexilon was made of?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 9, 2015 - 08:41am PT
They do Gettysburg reenactments.....with all of the fervor for old gear on ST how about some "old school" ones.
Get a bunch of people to pool gear and find two good venues.....one for rock and another for ice.
Everyone will have a blast and excuses for poor performance are ready made.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
May 2, 2016 - 10:15pm PT
When did they drop the "Frost"? My axe does not have it.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
May 2, 2016 - 10:25pm PT
John, from Dane Burns' blog:
http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-classic-piolet.html

Doug Robinson again:

"I think the very earliest Piolets were stamped only CHOUINARD. Then FROST was added. Rumor around the Diamond-C shop was that it was at the insistence of Tom's then-wife, Dorene. That could account for the double stamp, btw. The modest Frost would never have suggested such a thing himself. I always thought it was particularly ironic for his name to show up only on the axes, because of all the hardware that went out of there the axe was mostly YCs design, with the least input from Frost. No question, of course, that the later 70s Piolets, after YC bought out Tom, were stamped only CHOUINARD.
johntp

Trad climber
socal
May 2, 2016 - 10:33pm PT
Yeah, like I'm gonna believe anything from Doug. He taught me to tele ski, I'll never forgive him.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
May 3, 2016 - 01:39am PT
I saw it here in the thread, that Frost parted company in '75 & the first thing to go was his name on the ax heads.


This axe, called the Chouinard-Frost Piolet, featured a hand forged, ground and polished chrome-nickle steel head and a hickory shaft, and has since been a mountaineering equipment classic in the both the US and in the Alps. By printing time of Chouinard Equipment's first catalog in 1972, the Chouinard Piolet shown on page 34 had a new laminated bamboo shaft design, dubbed to be lighter weight and just as strong as the hickory shafted orginal. Over the next 7 years, the Chouinard Piolet went through a few other design changes, including a revised marking on the head, omitting "Frost" from "Chouinard-Frost". This change was first seen in the 1978 catalog, even though Tom Frost had left the company years earlier, in 1975. Other designs of the Piolet included a version with two sections of teeth or notches(double-toothed) on the drooped and curved pick. In other modifications, the shaft material changed again, first to a laminated hickory, then laminated ash for a short time, and eventually a synthetic called Rexilon in 1979, after the UIAA began to raise concerns with the integrity of "wooden" axe shafts. All wooden shafted variations of the Chouinard's Piolet were made by C.A.M.P., but the axe model was phased out of production after 1979.
but on further review I found it re-told in the theard on the page of posts # 41 - 60


from: http://www.bradleyalpinist.com/cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=28

RE: Chouinard-Frost Piolet
"Somewhere long about 1969, Yvon Chouinard and Tom Frost, of Chouinard Equipment in Ventura, California, commissioned the Codega brothers to build an axe to their specifications. This axe, called the Chouinard-Frost Piolet, featured a hand forged, ground and polished chrome-nickle steel head and a hickory shaft, and has since been a mountaineering equipment classic in the both the US and in the Alps. By printing time of Chouinard Equipment's first catalog in 1972, the Chouinard Piolet shown on page 34 had a new laminated bamboo shaft design, dubbed to be lighter weight and just as strong as the hickory shafted orginal.

Over the next 7 years, the Chouinard Piolet went through a few other design changes, including a revised marking on the head, omitting "Frost" from "Chouinard-Frost". This change was first seen in the 1978 catalog, even though Tom Frost had left the company years earlier, in 1975."

Chouinard catalogs were long known to retailers for being late to the retail market with many items discontinued or unavailable by the time the catalog made it to print and to the dealers. By 1978 the wooden handle Chouinard axes of any type were no longer available in Europe or by then easily available in the USA. And by the fall of '78 even Snell's in Chamonix had the Camp bamboo Chouinard clones on sale, what few they did have. Mind you these were "newest" three rivet dbl tooth heads but with no Chouinard marking. In 1978 The last of the US imported axes had a 3 rivet head and only Chouinard stamped on them.

The 1978 Great Pacific Iron Works catalog (formerly Chouinard and their 3rd catalog) is a interesting mix of the newest carbon fiber Piolet with a hand forged head and "fake" carbon fiber Zeros with bamboo shafts painted to resemble carbon fiber. Clearly a transition time for Chouinard piolets. The Carbon fiber axes were available by the winter of '79. I bought both a carbon fiber piolet and a Zero axe that winter. Found the early carbon fiber lacking on hard Canadian ice and went back to a bamboo Zero axe, now, in '79, extremely hard to find.
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