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EdBannister
Mountain climber
CA
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ahh ethics....
never easy..
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MB of the Central Valley
climber
kingsburg, CA
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"...Only thing wrong with tainted money is that there's 'taint enough of it," a seasoned non-profit fundraiser once told me.
Though, on the face of it, I agree with the decision, the fact that the company saw the connection between their packaging waste and this volunteer-led event is admirable. Perhaps their philanthropic energy and resources could be directed somehow?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I hate bottled water and have even started a thread in the past to exhort people not to bring them to Yosemite
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/379682/Quit-bringing-Bottled-water-to-Yosemite-and-Josh
That said, Why shouldn't a bottled water company contribute money to help clean up garbage when their product contributes to garbage?
What corporations would be acceptable sponsors? The government will certainly be a sponsor/benefactor of Ken's museum and they have plenty of dirt on their hands.
In my mind, it is in interacting with these corporations that some movement toward change can happen. When you negotiate the terms, you specify things and communications that move the issue toward more green and responsible. The other bottled water corporations see it and have to more greener themselves. Just turning them down make them take their money elsewhere, dirt bike comps or something
Peace
Karl
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The Alpine
Big Wall climber
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Whatever Werner. Plastic may not be THE problem, but it is A PROBLEM. Just like the beef industry. And the oil industry. And the housing industry. And the food industry........
In fact, one could argue that most of our plastic waste is completely because of how we consume our food/water: PACKAGING. We eat packaged food from friggin' zimbabwe(exxageration for effect).
How sustainable is that?
I'm part of the problem. On a recent trip to Zion I made note of how much plastic packaging I went through. I was saddened by it. BARS, pasta, dried fruit blah blah. I'm guilty.
I'm going to try to stop my use of this crap and I think its FUKKING AWESOME that Ken did this. It shows me that others are paying attention and ACTING.
Just ask this albatross killed by plastic:
or maybe this guy:
More sobering shiit at chrisjordan.com
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Ya I'm with you, the Great Pacific Garbage Patch doesn't need to be any greater...
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 9, 2010 - 10:51pm PT
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The money came with a condition that they could pass out bottled water. I told them I would not allow that as we have some of the best tap water in the world and I don't feel that it was a good message. They refused. Bottled water may have it's place, it just isn't everywhere. End of story.
Ken
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Maysho
climber
Soda Springs, CA
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Ken, I applaud you for working to keep your fantastic efforts with the Facelift and the promotions attached, ethically congruent, perhaps there is a nuanced win-win opportunity here.
I agree with Karl, companies that create products that clog the waste stream and harm the eco-system, should be putting money into trash clean-up, if you could reframe the sponsorship, somehow a different reference "Like we thank XYZ Company for providing funds from the XYZ trash abatement fund, rather than big banners for XYZ promoting the water bottle brand in general.
For example, I would like to get some booze company to fund my youth development programs, for sure a lot of the f*cked up parents whose kids end up in the programs I run were ruined by their relationship to booze. And a high percentage of the teen moms I work with were impregnated while one or both parties were intoxicated. So why not get some of the profits generated back into the community for "harm abatement".
I don't want to promote alcohol abuse, anymore than you want to promote buying bottled water, but getting companies to take on even a small financial gesture toward the huge "externalized costs" that society bears while they reap huge profits is a good thing.
Peter
Edit: Just saw your last post, totally agree with your stance, never mind my unrealistic idea!
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MB of the Central Valley
climber
kingsburg, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 01:06am PT
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You're right, Formerly Known. I was giving them too much credit.
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Brian
climber
California
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Jun 10, 2010 - 01:48am PT
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(1) Bravo Ken. Right decision.
(2) Coz and Werner. You've made some good points about other forms of impact, not only fleece jackets, but also ropes, climbing shoes, driving to and from the Valley, and so on. I think there are several issues that make bottled water a particularly odious example of unnecessary consumption. First, the vast majority of bottled water is no better, and is at times worse, than the water you can get from your tap. Second, the water from your tap is free, while bottled water is more expensive than gasoline. It's the biggest "you're-a-sucker" marketing coup since the "pet rock." Third, as someone noted upstream, it's a very, very easy behavior to correct. Much easier than going vegetarian Werner (although I agree with you about the relative impact, and agree that folks should move toward vegetarianism).
Hypocrisy is when a person's behaviors do not conform to their moral beliefs. But there are certainly degrees here. A fleece jacket will last years (if not your lifetime) and serves better than the option you have for free (your skin). Neither of these is true of bottled water. My life is not zero impact, but it's not hypocrisy to criticize bottled water. I've made significant concessions to my lifestyle, and so have tried to address the more glaring "hypocrisies." But to say a person can't justifiably criticize bottled water until her own life is ship-shape is too high a standard. Hell, I jaywalk, which means I break the law knowingly and willfully. But that doesn't mean I am a hypocrite in any meaningful sense when I criticize a home-invasion robber (who, after all, is breaking a law just like I do when I jaywalk).
Again. Bravo Ken. Bottled water is a complete scam with an unjustifiable and unforgivable carbon footprint.
Brian
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reddirt
climber
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Jun 10, 2010 - 08:19am PT
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cognitive dissonance averted!
part of me wishes that some of the disturbing pix on this thread could be distributed along w/ every plastic bottle sold...
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 11:11am PT
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Good for you, Ken!
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ATS
Social climber
escondido, ca
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Jun 24, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
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Kinda funny how government(s) are ok in this argument when in most cases they trusted very little.
With all of the fluoride and other crazy poop cities dump into today's water supply, I hardly buy the notion that tap water (generally speaking) is "better" for you than bottled water.
I think there are two separate arguments; that there are the "health" differences and "environmental" differences.
I think most everyone can agree that "environmentally," bottled water provides a terrible waste of resources, whereas in some cases bottled water is probably considered much "healthier" for you.
That said, someone (Ken) decided that principle was going to trump money. That speaks volumes, right or wrong.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Jun 25, 2010 - 12:48am PT
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This whole issue is quickly gaining momentum in public awareness, and through small but bold steps like Ken’s we will certainly slow the influx of plastic to our world environment, and hopefully halt it. Bravo Ken!
Sea Education Association (SEA) is conducting the first federally-funded research expedition dedicated solely to examining the accumulation of plastic debris in the North Atlantic Ocean. A good friend of mine is aboard the research ship, and from the daily logs, they are busy as can be. Sadly, the results are discouraging. But, lets all pull together and each help to stop making the problem even worse, even if by the smallest of steps. Check out what going on right now at:
http://www.sea.edu/plastics/index.htm
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freeheelgirl
Trad climber
san francisco
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Jun 25, 2010 - 01:00am PT
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Now that's a story I love to hear! No room for this community (or any other, really) to promote their wasteful and unnecessary product!
The Alpine - for your bar wrappers, go to http://www.terracycle.com/. It doesn't get rid of the wrappers but atleast you can do something productive with them. As for your other packaging issues...buy in bulk then use your own, reusable zip lock bags for the food you need on a wall. And thanks for linking Chris Jordan's photos. His work is pretty remarkable and he is back to Midway soon to continue his story on the albatross there - very tragic stuff. http://www.chrisjordan.com/gallery/midway/#about - he's looking for funding, so if you folks out there care, and you've got a few bucks to spare...
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Jun 25, 2010 - 01:05am PT
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I basically agree with your ideas and integrity, but
I wonder (just out of curiosity) if this might have been
an opportunity to get them involved in a new mentality of
not littering, recycling, and putting it into their commercials, you know,
or something along those lines where they could become part
of the solution rather than the problem...? I mean, tell them
if they put in some kind of clear promotion of proper recycling
and not littering... you could involve them somehow and benefit
from their contribution? I don't know how those kinds of things
work, though, so that's why Ken's the boss...
Pat
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jstan
climber
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Jun 25, 2010 - 01:13am PT
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Our city water runs through unlined tunnels with hot sulfur springs before it gets to us so I put in an RO system.
We use maybe 3qts to a gallon per day and I punched a hole in the house foundation
so I could use the wastewater for irrigation. Has been working like a charm.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 25, 2010 - 01:15am PT
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Commercial bottled water is going to be banned in Walden, Massachusetts. Thoreau's Walden, that is. In part due to crusading by an 82 year old woman who just plain thought it was wrong, and stupid.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/23/us/23water.html?scp=2&sq=walden%20bottled%20water&st=cse
The water merchants are predictably furious - they naturally fear a precedent that might quickly catch on. But the initiative was approved by the voters, so now it's off to court.
Great things are sometimes possible.
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Forest
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 25, 2010 - 02:32am PT
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With all of the fluoride and other crazy poop cities dump into today's water supply, I hardly buy the notion that tap water (generally speaking) is "better" for you than bottled water.
Then you're not paying attention. Bottled water has little or no quality standards it has to follow whatsoever. Municipal water is tested often by people who's job it is to find contamination, backed up by regulations that severely restrict the allowed contamination, and anyone who has a well and half a brain gets their well tested often as well.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 25, 2010 - 06:14am PT
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The money came with a condition that they could pass out bottled water. I told them I would not allow that as we have some of the best tap water in the world and I don't feel that it was a good message. They refused. Bottled water may have it's place, it just isn't everywhere. End of story.
Good decision, Ken.
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