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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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The TR Commemorative was too nice a rifle to actually carry in the field like my Browning .45-70 (which originally belonged to climber Mike Baker) and was probably as "unfun" to shoot.
I have a similar problem with my Winchester .300WSM.
The ballistics of that caliber are so astounding for long range, but cranking off several dozen at the range beats the hell out of me.
I wonder who can build me a super heavy tricked out bencher in that caliber so I can save the light Winchester for large game if I ever do that again.
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RDB
Social climber
way out there
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Mine's a beater Browning with a few minor mods and a rebore but originally looked like this. Good to see they finally got a room :)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Lever actions appeal to me out of a sense of history, but slide actions are more practical for follow up shots as it is slightly easier to maintain sight picture.
It would be nice if Remington took the 870 and scaled it down a bit to cut weight. Use a 16.5" rifled barrel and a 13" pull (for pack straps and heavy clothing) and maybe chambered in the most serious revolver rounds;
.41
.44
.460
.500
or even a rifled 16.5" 20 gauge for sabots
a real "bear country light carbine".
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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I hope that they get to at least get a little of the meat from the bear. That is as close to organic as you can get.
I have always just used my voice against the black bears in the Sierra. But in Alaska due to the general remoteness of the region, the rules are quite a bit different. Even a seriously mauled arm or leg that would require a hospital trip in CA. is quite a bit more serious in the Alaskan Wilderness.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2010 - 05:25pm PT
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Summary of viewpoints offered so far:
1. Don't go places that make you afraid. This leaves a space for animals that don't inmteract well with people.
2. Go anywhere you want as long as you have sufficient firepower. Use it on animals "reluctantly", but make no mistake in realizing that means someone kills all the animals they "feel threatened" by.
3. Anyone with a job in bear country carries 100% of the time, it is their duty to kill any dangerous animal. Interestingly the one person with the most bear country experience does not think this.
4. Lastly, kill all dangerous animals prophylactically. Of couse, this would mean exterminating dogs. They kill and maim thousands of people every year.
Fair summary?
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RDB
Social climber
way out there
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Get a clue.
"3. Anyone with a job in bear country carries 100% of the time, it is their duty to kill any dangerous animal. Interestingly the one person with the most bear country experience does not think this."
People that are required to be in some types of bear country and have bear experience generally carry for self defense.
Self defense is an action to stop an attack it has nothing to do with killing but may result in that. Not knowing the difference shows just how little you know on the subject of bears, guns, defending yourself or common law.
Self defense has nothing to do with killing a "dangerious" animal. If you know how to avoid bears they aren't generally dangerious. But there are exceptions just like with people. Generally people don't eat people. Bears will as the most recent thread points out with some clarity.
Easier to avoid most disagreeable people. Those that can't avoid disagreeable people often carry a firearm for self defense.
"Interestingly the one person with the most bear country experience does not think this."
And that would be who? Anyone care to claim that position here?
Lots of different types of "bear country" Just as there are several types of bears.
Few (wild places or bear types) require a firearm for self protection. A few you would be remiss imo to go without one and no question you would be in danger of great bodily harm or death as well as being on the dinner menu.
Funny thing about guns...you never need one until you need one badly.
Same can be said for a climbing rope or pro. Guns or ropes are just tools you decide on how they will be used.
A lot of difference between my back yard "bear country" and a 12' alder patch next to a salmon stream in SE Alaska.
Discussing the topic in general terms is just the ramblings of the uninformed and inexperienced.
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snaps10
Mountain climber
Visalia, CA
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Summary of viewpoints offered so far:
1. Don't go places that make you afraid. This leaves a space for animals that don't inmteract well with people.
2. Go anywhere you want as long as you have sufficient firepower. Use it on animals "reluctantly", but make no mistake in realizing that means someone kills all the animals they "feel threatened" by.
3. Anyone with a job in bear country carries 100% of the time, it is their duty to kill any dangerous animal. Interestingly the one person with the most bear country experience does not think this.
4. Lastly, kill all dangerous animals prophylactically. Of couse, this would mean exterminating dogs. They kill and maim thousands of people every year.
Fair summary?
You may just be the most closed minded person in the history of this bulletin board, and that's saying a ton. Here's a thought, YOUR VIEWPOINT ISN'T NECESSARILY EVERYTHING!!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Scraptee,
In the summer of 1857 a street preacher in Boston had words with a prostitute that made him so upset that he went home and castrated himself.
The guy went on to become an outstanding Union soldier who was captured and sent to Andersonville.
He survived that too.
He was released in a prisoner exchange and went on to fatally shoot John Wilkes Booth.
So,.... maybe he is. But in a home improvement store?
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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2. Go anywhere you want as long as you have sufficient firepower. Use it on animals "reluctantly", but make no mistake in realizing that means someone kills all the animals they "feel threatened" by.
Stupid kid or master troller? You gotta be one or the other.
how about:
5. Go anywhere you want, armed or unarmed as you choose, and respond to animal attacks as you choose (within the law of course). You can decide to use or not use. Whatever is appropriate for the situation.
You can just stand there and be eaten, you can run away...and be eaten, you could play dead and maybe only be mauled....and then eaten, you could try pepper spray...and be...well, you get the idea. You decide.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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I think the "you decide" provision is what spooks the anti-gun types the most.
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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One guy with a ton of experience in brown bears (Timothy Treadwell) was eaten by one.
As was opinioned in my local paper,
“Bear savvy goes a long way to keep dangerous encounters to a minimum but can't cover every possibility. “
To answer rokjox's question if you happen upon a grizzly eating a human (or for that matter, more likely a moose or caribou), get the f out of there slowly watching your back. If you happen upon a half buried carcass then pray the bear has left the area.
If you feel the need to be completely safe wear a bear suit.
http://www.improb.com/news/2002/may/troy-new-suit.html
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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"If you feel the need to be completely safe wear a bear suit."
HAW,Haw, Haw, haw!
Hey, you might get "lucky".
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habitat
climber
grass pass
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If a bear walks into my living room, I'm gonna shoot it.
But I wouldn't bring a gun into a bear's living room. That would be bad manners.
"What's for dinner? Oh, moi?! Well, I did come unannounced, and univited. And you ARE a bear. What's that? You're not hungry? But you're protecting your offspring? Well, let's see, being a mom myself and all, I understand your concern..." (see sentence #1)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I've been waiting for somebody to put forth the effective warning shot scenario.
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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It IS a most persuasive sound, no?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Stzzo, hard to imitate that sound with a stick.
Besides, what are the odds?
A 14' griz thats a pussy!
(possible explanation; the griz had previous experince with that sound)
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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ex-stzzo may be a Gambler.
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RDB
Social climber
way out there
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"what are the odds?
A 14' griz thats a pussy!"
Now that is some funny sh#t.
Who wants to volenteer to find another :)
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2010 - 09:45pm PT
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I meant Anders. He seems to have lived his whole life in bear country. This is only my opinion. And yes, I realize the different types of bear country.
I live where there are only black bears, and mostly they are pretty shy. I have had to run after practically every bear I've ever seen, with one big exception.
I love cycling as much as climbing and have done both since I was a small child. I started keeping track of my mileage when I was 25 and since then (I'm 51 now) I have racked up 172,000 miles. I have ridden my mountain bike in the Jemez Mtns. for almost 6000 of that total. Virtually all of it was done alone.
The Jemez were clear-cut logged around a century age, then they were abandoned for the most part by commercial logging. This left roads that stopped getting maintence about a century ago. Many of these are not passable even by 4-wheelers, but can be done on a bike, with or without a motor. I hold no grudge agains our area motorcyclists,they are usually very polite and contribute way more than their share of trail maintanence.
I was riding the bottom of a drainage that was quite difficult. It was very tight but after a while there was a great little stream trailside. I got to a steep little rise that had a sharp turn at the top. There was sort of an alcove right there and it was a pretty great spot.
So much so that there was a large parent bear playing with three cubs, swatting them around They were about ten feet away and did not notice me for several moments.
I spent those moments pondering my future as they were bound to notice me sooner than later, but that moment would be right now if I picked up my bike to turn it around, compounded by having my back turned. I believe that is a very dangerous act in any kind of a confrontation.
My dilemma was ended as one of the cubs spotted me and squealled in fright. Two of the cubs immediately sprinted for cover and dissapeared, good for me I figured.
Third cub sprinted up a tree right between me and the big bear. Way bad for me, I figured. Big bear stands on hind legs and starts woofing. I know I cannot outsprint the bear over a short distance and this trail is not a high speed kinda path.
But I also figured that there was no way it was gonna chase me very far, not and leave the cubs behind. I had come to the decisive moment, I threw my bike the other way and did my best cyclocross running mount and sprinted for all I was worth. There was a short (40 ft?) straight then another turn that would keep you from looking back uptrail.
I did not risk looking behind at first, it would have really cut into my sprint speed. I finally took the risk at the corner that would have made it impossible to see back upcanyon.
What I saw was the bear standing on hind legs at the first corner. I put my head back down and concentrated on not falling. I felt pretty safe after the first hundred yards. I figured if I hadn't been caught by then I wasn't being chased.
It really got my heart pumping but I didn't come out wanting a gun. For one thing I was succesful. Just like in climbing everybody who is working their way through the grades, they are developing a library of experiences. Part of doing harder, bigger climbs is being pretty sure that you can do it safely.
I feel like I made the right decisions, timed it right and got away clean. Yeah, it could be different next time, but it was a once so far in my lifetime experience. It's very likely that I will never have that experience again.
I didn't come out of it wanting a gun. I don't believe that a gun would have kept the bear from killing me.if it had wanted to do so. If a 1000 pound animal is really charging at you in a space where you cannot posibly evade it, it will get to you. Even if it is only alive for another ten seconds thats long enough for you to die. I don't believe it would have changed my outcome even if I was able to kill the bear.
"Tree hugging Cali" from upthread. I don't get why so many here have such antipathy towards Californians. Regardless, I grew up in the four corners and have spent my entire life here. I love New Mexico and have never been tepted to move away. And yes,I do know redneck. My hometown had a "GET US OUT OF THE RED U.N." billboard the first twenty five years of my life. My observations on the gun culture are from a lot of real life experience.
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