Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 12:42am PT
|
naw... Pate. That's not his angle.
Werner, I'm not going to answer that last question. Mostly because we're just inwardly spiraling down a pointless conversation. At least that's my opinion. But then again I have no proof I have an opinion.
I'll bet that the point I made many understand. Arguing semantics isn't all the exciting to me. I stand by my words. If you don't "get" them that's cool. Doesn't bother me. And it's not like you appear to be asking your questions or inquiring into my thinking because really want to know what I think. I feel like you are trying to one-up me.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 12:44am PT
|
I'm not riding his ass, Pate.
I'm asking honest questions of why nothing is provable.
|
|
WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 12:54am PT
|
The only thing . . . I . . . can know with absolute certainty is that something (this thing I call I, whatever it is) exists.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 01:00am PT
|
Yes, that is intelligence.
|
|
go-B
climber
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 01:06am PT
|
And that God's in control!
|
|
nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 01:13am PT
|
Yup! I agree with that!
You control your own destiny.
Hey Werner... what translation of the Gita do you connect with? van Buitenen?
|
|
go-B
climber
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 01:20am PT
|
Hebrews 9:27-28, And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 01:28am PT
|
Where will Christ appear the "second time"?
Nature: A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
|
|
nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 01:36am PT
|
Thanks. I have that one.
|
|
WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 02:38am PT
|
sorry, but then I wander off into probability / improbability . . .
|
|
brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 12:17pm PT
|
The Argument from Time and Contingency
1. We notice around us things that come into being and go out of being. A tree, for example, grows from a tiny shoot, flowers brilliantly, then withers and dies.
2. Whatever comes into being or goes out of being does not have to be; nonbeing is a real possibility.
3. Suppose that nothing has to be; that is, that nonbeing is a real possibility for everything.
4. Then right now nothing would exist. For
5. If the universe began to exist, then all being must trace its origin to some past moment before which there existed—literally—nothing at all. But
6. From nothing nothing comes. So
7. The universe could not have begun.
8. But suppose the universe never began. Then, for the infinitely long duration of cosmic history, all being had the built—in possibility not to be. But
9. If in an infinite time that possibility was never realized, then it could not have been a real possibility at all. So
10. There must exist something which has to exist, which cannot not exist. This sort of being is called necessary.
11. Either this necessity belongs to the thing in itself or it is derived from another. If derived from another there must ultimately exist a being whose necessity is not derived, that is, an absolutely necessary being.
12. This absolutely necessary being is God.
|
|
go-B
climber
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 12:33pm PT
|
Mark 13:32, “But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
|
do you notice the roiling of the vacuum?
in our approximate understanding it is there, and measurable, but we might not be able to "see it directly"
and what of the matter and energy that are not made up of the same stuff as us, what about that? and when did we know about it... how does it help explain what is going on?
You are arguing for an "initial cause" for the things you see, yet you do not even see everything
You are taking our experience of the universe and making it universal, yet there is more there than we know.
Even our experience of space and time is an approximation to what is actually there, it too has a beginning and perhaps an end, explainable by physical principal, but you talk about them as absolutes.
The real tragedy of trying to prove the unprovable is that you get locked into a dogmatic approach in the attempt to make your case, a case that can't be made the way you are proceeding.
If there is no beginning and there is no end, if there is no "first cause" and "last act" are you saying that there is no God?
|
|
brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
|
Ed......correct me if I'm wrong ....but are not energy and mass/matter the same thing?
The energy we observe is just constantly changing form.
And yes there is much we do not see....thus the reason for smashing electrons together to find exotic particles that we have "faith" exist.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 01:23pm PT
|
we don't have any faith that anything exists... as you put it... it is why we do experiments to seek empirical consistency, and confirmation
and we also understand the limitations of our ability to do experiments
Faith has nothing to do with it
|
|
brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 01:25pm PT
|
Point taken.
But scientists are still rolling the dice and taking bets.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
|
nope... you got it wrong...
|
|
brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
|
I bet there is some physicist out there who would take my bet on whether the graviton exists or not.
|
|
nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
|
sounds like a gambler. not a scientist.
|
|
brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
|
|
|
May 27, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
|
The point is that we are all convicted towards certain truths which we deem as explanations for things, and therefore the paths we take towards those truths will sometimes differ greatly from those around us.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!