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steve shea
climber
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May 21, 2011 - 06:05pm PT
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Hey LB4USC I'll bet you had no idea how much you stirred the pot with your thread. I stand by my earlier post. For me as a cancer survivor and over the hill alpinist, Armstrong was and will continue to be an inspiration. Does that mean I condone doping if he is proven to have used drugs, no. But that is a different issue. Also arguments based on conjecture and personal animosity don't hold water. When the proven facts are in I can revisit Armstrongs legacy and decide for myself. I think in the context of the doping era it won't mean much. For now, self righteous buffoonery and conjecture is nonsense. I can't imagine sitting around waiting and hoping with anticipation for the demise of someone you don't know based on conjecture and hate. Anyway it's beer thirty here in Jackson Hole, still snowing above 3000 meters, and the rapture hasn't happened. Think I'll watch the Red Sox and Cubs. Yeah yeah, I know, another roid fest. BTW I have hung on pro.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 21, 2011 - 09:13pm PT
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What I am suggesting is that people stop calling folks the likes of Hamilton and Landis as liars etc. They are coming clean. Regardless of what folks think about them, the fact remains that the professional sport of cycling is dirty and has been for a longass time. And for LA to outright time and time again profess to be the ONLY clean dude of the lot and that the rest are liars regarding their claims that he isn't etc, that is just plain BS.
What are you going to state when Georgie and Levi's testimonies become public. What are you then going to say when they corroberate the testimony of Hamilton and Landis's claims and in fact state that they juiced with LA. What are you going to say when the evidence shows that positive samples were withheld. Fact remains that these dudes are coming clean to avoid any further legal ramification and most likely were given full immunitiy by the Grand Jury if they told the truth about the whole shetty dealings.
You conveniently want to forget, apparently, that the two you mention above, are PROVEN liars. They got up in front of the world, and lied. Now they are getting up in front of the world...and you want to believe them? When they have much to gain? In a court of law, their word, as liars, would hold little weight. It holds little with me.
You ask about testimony? I am going to keep an open mind, and remember, that in America, a person is innocent until proven guilty. LA has that right. In addition, ALL OBJECTIVE evidence that currently exists supports his version. Of course, that may change. If it does, my opinion will, as well.
But until it does, he deserves the same right that should be accorded YOU.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 21, 2011 - 09:15pm PT
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Ten bucks says he is totally exonerated by the appointed Three CAS Arbitrators as were the other four athletes all based on the evidence presented by his defence team which includes documents showing the Guardia's national investigation where the ranch from which that meat came from, did indeed use/inject clenbuterol on a regualar basis.
If you believe that "defense", then you must print your money at home.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 21, 2011 - 09:20pm PT
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Interesting point, my Wife commented that no wonder Sheryl Crow quickly abandoned his ass. She found out the truth and wanted nothing to with it. Could be his first wife did the same and was paid big bucks to keep silent.
I think it is now time to start speculating about how many women have left you because of all the physical abuse you have inflicted upon them, and probably continue to do to your current wife. She is obviously spending time thinking about women leaving their husbands, it fits.
You can keep paying the women you hit to not report you to the cops, but slime like you won't get away with it forever.
......How does that treatment of you, and of your wife feel?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 21, 2011 - 09:30pm PT
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Ken...the chief has major hate issues with Lance...comparing him to OBL and then speculating about his wives and personal life.
I don't give a rat's ass if Lance doped. Up to this point the man was tested 500 times and zero proof.
I vividly remember the day Lance announce he had cancer. My son asked me if I thought Lance would race again...my anwser was that he might not live..let alone race again.
Winning seven tours as a cancer victim (dope or no dope) is nothing short of an expectional performance by one human being.
Steve...let me know when you make it to Aspen...maybe we can get Mike out too.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 21, 2011 - 09:38pm PT
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Thanks, Bob, that is becoming apparent.
Whatever the truth about LA, he is an exceptional athlete, who had an astonishing comeback from what would have stopped almost all other people.
If it turns out that it is proved that he doped, it will certainly diminish him tremendously.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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May 21, 2011 - 09:57pm PT
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Sports Hero.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 21, 2011 - 11:34pm PT
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After the personel insults come the real gang bang personel insults from the peanut gallery.
Ya'll got loads of class.
I hate no one. I despise their behavior and actions. More so, I despise folks as yourselves that condone all these negative behaviors and actions all because an individual achieves something high in the journals of certain success, regardless how they achieved it. Regardless how dirty they are. Regardless that they sold themselves and any level of integrity and honor they had, in achieving it. Now that is top notch ain't it. That is what we want to teach the next generation don't we.
Unfkingbelievable.
Better start looking in a mirror, Chief. In terms of relative achievement, peanut gallery and lack of class certainly applies.
You seriously don't get it. You are a rumor monger, a spreader of bad tidings. You are a downer. You have no facts, but you don't let that stop you from smearing people. THAT is a FACT. You don't seem to have much of a grasp of FACTS. They are DIFFERENT than opinions.
You need to learn to be humble about the difference between what you THINK, and what you KNOW.
You like to live on the basis of speculation, when things don't "seem" quite right. Do you understand what kind of world that is to live in?
Shall we take a walk down that road with you as the object?
What exactly is it that you want done? Without any other investigation, LA stripped of his medals? Waterboarding him until he confesses (and continuing until he does, because we know he is guilty!)? Should we withhold his chemotherapy? Throw him in jail? Confiscate his property.
TELL US!
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 21, 2011 - 11:40pm PT
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Chief wrote: I hate no one. I despise their behavior and actions. More so, I despise folks as yourselves that condone all these negative behaviors and actions all because an individual achieves something high in the journals of certain success
Despise...nice word for hate.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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May 22, 2011 - 04:58pm PT
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Great picture form todays stage of the Giro...
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 22, 2011 - 08:03pm PT
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What I know is what LA's team mates are spelling the beans on the entire ordeal while UNDER OATH. Of course, those individuals are now all LIARS and the only one telling the truth is LA.
I get it now.
See, here is what I mean. You don't know that. The testimony was given in Grand Jury, which is closed, and not reported. There are reports about what was said, but you will never see those transcripts, ever.
So we are talking about rumors that you've heard and read, not about what you "know". You were not in the courtroom. You have not read a transcript. You have not watched a video of testimony.
Rumors.
You CERTAINLY have no information about what has occurred in his personal relationships. To say that you know why a relationship broke up, and post it publically, is, indeed a low and hateful thing to do.
Like I said, is this the way that you want to be treated?
In the end, when the truth is completely out, it will be everyone elses fault and LA will not have an ounce of need to be held accountable for his actions and behavior. Why? Because by god he is a cancer survivor and should be spared any repercussions for his actions.
I get that as well.
I hope not, and I'd not support that. As I've already said, he will be greatly diminished, if that is the case.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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May 22, 2011 - 08:03pm PT
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60 Minutes toasts LA
pretty hard to dismiss this
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 22, 2011 - 08:08pm PT
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I think when there is serious money involved most all professional athletes will cheat to win. As in the vast majority and in some sports like baseball and road biking, cheating is part and parcel, an outright requirement to win.
One reason I like golf:
Jones was not only a consummately skilled golfer but exemplified the principles of sportsmanship and fair play.
Early in his amateur career, he was in the final playoff of the 1925 U.S. Open at the Worcester Country Club. During the match, his ball ended up in the rough just off the fairway, and as he was setting up to play his shot, his iron caused a slight movement of the ball. He immediately got angry with himself, turned to the marshals, and called a penalty on himself.
The marshals discussed among themselves and questioned some of the gallery whether they had seen Jones's ball move. Their decision was that neither they nor anyone else had witnessed any incident, so the decision was left to Jones.
Bobby Jones called the two-stroke penalty on himself, not knowing that he would lose the tournament by one stroke.
When he was praised for his gesture, Jones replied, "You may as well praise a man for not robbing a bank." The USGA's sportsmanship award is named the Bob Jones Award in his honor.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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May 22, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
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Lance got lanced.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 23, 2011 - 12:18am PT
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Chief, your absolute delight at the thought of misery of others is something to behold. There is nothing good in this that I can see, and certainly nothing to be gleeful about. Should you be correct in your accusations of his cheating, it will be yet another stain on American sportsmen, and that includes you.
The 60 minutes piece was pretty damning. However, it was all hearsay, and I still say that innocent until proven guilty. That hasn't happened. Hamilton has credibility problems, Landis does, big time. We'll see about Hincapie. LA has not testified.
If it does, he will deserve what comes. In spite of his cancer survivor status.
Clear?
However, LA did nothing to you. I don't yet understand why his family is a reasonable target for your ire. That would generally seem to me to be out of bounds. I don't see you making comments about Landis's wife, even though his name is the actual topic of this thread, and he is a proven and admitted doper.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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May 23, 2011 - 01:17am PT
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i don't get it-
i really don't get the fascination, on either side of the debate.
it's really a lot like barry bonds.
the whole of baseball was on roids, it's the freakin STEROID ERA after all!
why is barry of interest? because he broke some records? because he was the best at getting the results they were all after? the problem was not players cheating, it was the MLB and the union knowing guys were on PEDs and knowing it was good for business, not just letting it go on but with a wink and a nod making it clear that it was fine with them, and they'd look the other way.
the problem was institutional.
people who talk about "The Game" as if it is sacred should be far more offended by the interests that allowed and even encouraged it than by the few who happened to be the most successful at the defacto "game".
same damn thing on bikes.
the whole scene cheats, they are all juicing in pbly several ways.
what's more, it's common knowledge.
is it lance's fault that he's the best guy on the best team under the rules that THE WHOLE SPORT operates under (even NOW)?
no more than it's barry's fault that he was the best player in the steroid era.
was lance cheating?
sure, he was a cheater, and in doing so he enabled himself to top all the other cheaters.
it's kinda hard for me to care, honestly.
did barry cheat?
well wait- was there even a RULE against what barry did, at the time he did it?
i am not even sure myself of the answer to that Q.
"BUT THEY LIED ABOUT IT"
well-
that's true.
but I'd argue that it's almost not their fault.
(seriously)
what happens when the whole sport is doing the same thing?
lance is the best doper-
barry is a few HRs ahead of all the other lumberjacks in the league-
just look at all the huge juicers out there in the late 90s, and guess what?
everyone knows the roids were pbly even MORE valuable for the pitchers!
(case in point was greg gagne, the dodgers star closer- common knowledge he was on the juice huge. who knows how many pitchers were juicing? think it doesn't matter? maybe it doesn't, but rodger marris played clean against guys who were clean too...)
so back to "blame"-
what are these guys gonna do?
honestly, you expect them to dope up with the whole league, the whole sport, in a system intentionally set up to allow it, even encourage it, and then when they actually WIN, when they happen to be more successful than the others doing the same damn thing, you want them to say, "you know what, yes, i used drugs to do this, i am a fraud..." ?
i am a huge giants fan, born and raised in SF, and i loved watching barry play. i was also a huge fan of lance, and i was inspired by him. my mom, who died fro cancer, was inspired by him.
did they let me down?
disappoint me?
somehow wrong me?
shiiiiiiiiiiit.
i knew they were doping the whole time.
any idiot would have.
screaming about it as if it was a surprise is just lying about it, or admitting you were an idiot, one or the other.
cheers,
-matt
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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May 23, 2011 - 01:41am PT
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I see a new line of red rubber bracelets in the future...
"RIDE CLEAN"
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Tahoe climber
climber
Davis these days
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May 23, 2011 - 01:44am PT
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I find it circumspect that people only out Lance when they have a book that's about to publish.
Lance has been drug tested more than any other athlete in any sport.
He passed all of them.
'Nuff said.
As for Floyd, who gives a sh#t?
TC
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WBraun
climber
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May 23, 2011 - 01:46am PT
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He passed all of them.
That's not what the report said.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 23, 2011 - 01:51am PT
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on American sportsmen, and that includes you.
My ass it does!
If you don't consider yourself an American Sportsman, which is what I accused you of, then you know what you are. I don't.
I am an American sportsman, and am proud of that. And I consider myself diminished and shamed by any other who cheats. so far that certainly includes Landis and Hamilton. LA has not yet admitted it, or been proven to have done it.
Would you have kids taught that? that we convict people on the basis of unproven allegations? It worked well for McCarthy! Is that your patron Saint?
Due Process is mine.
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