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billygoat
climber
cruzville
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Jan 30, 2010 - 02:13pm PT
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This "problem" would be practically non-existent if, as a nation, we could agree to pay a little more in taxes and restructure our federal budget to spend more on our social well-being and less on saving the world for "democracy." The problem isn't permits, of course we should have to get a permit to use our mutually-owned open spaces. The problem is the fact that the government can't even find the funds to manage such a system within their own budget. Instead, they get a "non-profit" organization to do what should be government's job, and that company (and it is run like a company) charges you a fee to go into the "wilderness." Bullsh#t.
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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Jan 30, 2010 - 02:16pm PT
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We don't need "to pay a little more in taxes". How about "we" spend what we have more wisely.
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful British Columbia
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Jan 30, 2010 - 02:24pm PT
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If not, I suppose there are basically two choices: somehow increase access or take the cables down.
Thats not how Yosemite became what it is today, by taking stuff down. If only the people were around now that built those beautiful structures like Awahnee hotel, there would be no talk of permits or taking cables down.
Build it and they will come was their motto, and it was a successful one.
The old timers would be disgusted by the paper pushing bureaucrats running the park today.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jan 30, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
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> think of the body armour the poor tool at subdome is going to need to turn back the irate folks.
Agreed. Imagine yourself in that job. It's 9am and there are hardly any people on the cables, but you have to turn people back because they don't have a permit. What if it's 6am? Do people still get turned around? Presumably there will be some time enforcement window, like 10am-dark.
At 1pm, with a huge queue at the cables, then it is not so hard to turn people back without a permit.
Maybe a better system for managing the congestion is to have the permits, but just create 2 queues. One for people with permits, and one for people without. People with permits get to go first, but if that queue is empty, people without permits get to go. (But still at a measured rate, so congestion is still controlled).
No doubt the rangers stuck with this job will figure out some system like this to accomplish the goal of cutting down the congestion, while letting a few folks through who didn't get their permit in advance.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
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It may be possible for the ranger sitting on the subdome to communicate with the ranger in Little Yosemite regarding the situation, and for the latter to post information, e.g. at the trail junction. At that point hikers, if informed, can still do something else. Current information at the trailhead will of course also help, and presumably part of the plan.
Many make it a two day outing, which adds a bit of complexity to the permitting process. They may well make it that a permit is good for hiking anywhere past the subdome, but only for a given day. It would add complexity to have to tally the number of permit holders who actually show up (register at trailhead, or Little Yosemite?), decide a "must arrive by" time, and then open up unused permits then. By the time it's decided, say 9 AM, it's getting fairly late for day hikers.
Having a ranger on the subdome would at least allow some education of hikers.
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billygoat
climber
cruzville
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Jan 30, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
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Srbphoto--yeah, you might be right. I was only thinking more taxes, 'cause the military-industrial complex seems so good at keeping their money. But, we probably could do a whole lot more for each other with what we have now or even less. Unfortunately, that would take such a drastic turn in our social thinking, I wouldn't wager my money on that likelihood.
bmacd--WTF are you suggesting they need to build?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jan 30, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
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Yep, it would be helpful to have some type of forecast for the cables congestion, supplied to people at Little Yosemite or even Happy Isles, to help them understand what to expect at the base of the cables.
Having a ranger at the base of the cables might also be useful in sketchy weather. I.e. if it's drizzling, tell people that they will be cited and charged for "creating a hazardous condition" if they can't make it down by themselves and a rescue has to be called.
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful British Columbia
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Jan 30, 2010 - 05:30pm PT
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I am suggesting the NPS suck it up and actually put in a 3rd cable to facilitate two way traffic up and down the dome.
Everything else the NPS are talking about is utter bullsh#t.
This is a fine micro economic example of why the USA is taking the financial hit it has in the last year. You guys stopped building things and instead decided paper instruments, like half dome hiking permits, or financial derivatives like credit default swaps or MBS actually contribute to GDP.
Put up the 3 rd cable .... it's that simple
And get some old school leadership personnel back into the NPS that aren't paper pushing beaurcracts mortally stricken with fear of litigation, whom can make decisions without asking for permission.
Good luck ...
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Jan 30, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
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it has been my experience on the busy weekends that people hear about the long wait before they get to the cables. folks heading down give the heads up. some people are dissuaded and turn around and others keep going too determined to turn back. i haven't gone up the cables during these busy times, i have just been running by on my way to or down from the meadows, or up there for the cleanup. the people i have talked to seemed to know about the long wait.
i wonder how many people actually complain about the wait, and how many just accept it as reality.
one of the studies i read said that most people would prefer that there were less people on the route, but did not want a permit system.
i still find it amazing the people who hike 16 miles round trip up 4000 ft of elevation to make it to the top of halfdome. the valley inspires greatness in all of us.
the biggest problem is not the people going up, but the folks going down who get freaked out and stop traffic in both directions. allowing people to head up after dark without a permit seems like an invitation for more rescues.
i am also curious as to how much information will be given to people over the phone from some call center in who knows where while they get their permits. the people who take reservations for the campground are somewhere in the midwest, and have no clue about the place they are talking about. it is hard to give information about a place they have never been.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jan 30, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
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I'm for another cable, but it would be used as another up route during congested periods.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 30, 2010 - 06:12pm PT
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"Is 1,000 HD trail users a day ok?"
Sure - How much of it is paved? The rest practically is.
"This is a fine micro economic example of why the USA is taking the financial hit it has in the last year. You guys stopped building things and instead decided paper instruments, like half dome hiking permits, or financial derivatives like credit default swaps or MBS actually contribute to GDP."
Agreed. While we're at it, how 'bout rebuilding the campgrounds we lost. It takes 10 years and a mound of beaurocracy and red tape to accomplish anything in the country. Meanwhile China is kicking our ass because they have no beaurocractic black hole - if a villager gets in the way of the construction of a steel mill, they just relocate him. Extreme, yes, but effective.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Jan 30, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
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Unintended Consequences?
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flakyfoont
Trad climber
carsoncity nv
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Jan 30, 2010 - 07:54pm PT
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sign zee papers please....real id holograms only....
no more box of infectious leather gloves....just dont forget your gamma globulin shots. Sgt Schulz at the sub domes. Colonel Clink at the top.
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Colby
Social climber
Ogdenville
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Jan 30, 2010 - 08:12pm PT
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Jesse does not deserve any flack. I'm glad he was willing to post this.
Regulations and Restrictions - yeah, that's the true spirit of wilderness that was so well voiced by John Muir.
Only two "fair" options in my mind: add another cable or take the existing ones out. "Wilderness adventure" should allow for spontaneity.
I've been on top of 1/2 dome a couple times in late June. I didn't encounter another person either time. People who go up during peak times(of the day) will get the traffic, but good on them for going.
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 30, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
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Corniss - it's already like that. Biggest group I saw last time was the group coming down at 10 am.
The NPS is making an honest effort to resolve the situation to our benefit, same as they did with backpacking. Thanks for that Jesse. It bums us all out that it needs to be done. We might just need to accept that.
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aguacaliente
climber
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Jan 30, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
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I think it sucks but I also don't see what other choice the NPS has.
People will b-tch at first if they hike up and discover they can't actually get on the cables, but they will adjust to it, the way we have adjusted to other things like backcountry backpacking permits, or the way tourists have adjusted to planning ahead to get a campsite in a crowded park. I don't love those either but the rationales to keep limited natural resources from being trodden over are legitimate. I think per-trip permitting systems probably don't exist primarily to raise money since they cost a lot of labor to administer. Use fees, like the bogus National Forest parking fees, I have a bigger problem with.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 31, 2010 - 12:07am PT
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More NPS bullsh#t. Total intrusive crap. as#h&les.
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Michelle
Social climber
The sucking black hole that is Tuolumne County
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Jan 31, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
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construct a tram and a bar at the top.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Jan 31, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
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Believe it or not, there was talk about a tram back in about 1990.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Jan 31, 2010 - 04:46pm PT
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if the park service can make half dome more like the wilderness experience it should be,
plus, what a drag to hike all the way up there and have to bail because of the other freaks on the hill?
maybe they should install an electric fence transformer up there,
just shock the people every 5 seconds so the travel time goes down?
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