Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
|
The reference someone mentioned above (and was looking for details about) is "First they came ..." It's from an address given by a German clergyman just after WWII
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out — because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out — because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out — because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me — and there was no one left to speak out.
|
|
kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
|
Ban the Veil!
|
|
AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
|
The French are particular; they even have a language police and basically speak the same French that Joan of arc did. As a country they have every right to ban the burka, just as they have every right to ban English words on signs. Don’t like it, don’t go to France. It is illegal for women to drive in Saudi Arabia, don’t like it don’t go.
If you want to go to a place that is currently struggling with Islam and the separation of gov/religion take a trip to Turkey.
As far as public safety, you want to go into a public building, get on a public bus, go through security at an airport, then Leave the KKK robe, Burka, ski mask, etc at home.
|
|
taorock
Trad climber
Okanogan, WA
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 04:46pm PT
|
Can I wear my balaclava in a National Park on a winter ascent? (He said as he tried to turn this into a climbing topic.)
|
|
Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 04:47pm PT
|
Blue - Because I don't wear a veil. I don't engage in traditional muslim practices. I don't even look like your idea of a "typical" Muslim. Why did the United States elect the first black president? Because he doesn't look black!
And to all the people talking about women's oppression by the veil, that is a weak argument.
Most women that wear veils choose to do so because they want to. Either because the don't want to be looked at as sex objects, or because it is a form of respect or because it is a personal choice of any reason.
The women's oppression argument is old.
This ban wasn't enacted so as to provide liberation for Muslim women. It was a racial, bigoted, ignorant, fearful move on the part of a very weak willed euro country.
Oh and what's even funnier is that the french really know how to smack their women around!!! They really treat 'em like crap!
Hypocrisy is so ignorant!
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
|
tao, YES--but only if you leave the goggles at home:-)
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
|
"Add a little tasteful makeup - say some light eyeliner and a bit of subtle not too bright lipstick. Lets put on some low-heeled pumps maybe an inch or two in height."--LEB
...because this is what Women find convenient and comfortable?
...or you do it to please men?
Just curious...
|
|
rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 05:06pm PT
|
"F*#K EVERYONE who thinks men have a right to insist women wear a collar and chain. I spit on that tradition"
In this country, we are prone to letting criminals go in order to protect ourselves against ever throwing an innocent person in jail. Our legal system is set up to protect the rights of people at the expense of not stopping some others from committing illegal acts. We treat people as innocent until they are proven guilty.
Maybe the same should apply here and we should consider this to be a wrong law that protects against the possibility of wrongful acts by taking the rights away from every citizen.
Really, we let criminals go to protect the rights of the innocent. This is exactly the same issue. France is taking the rights away from people engaged in perfectly legal and moral activities to protect against a POSSIBLE threat that can't even be quantified.
But then everyone seems to be willing to give up civil rights and let big brother protect us in this age of terrorism. Danger is lurking everywhere and maybe if we just round up everyone who looks or acts differently, we would all be better off. That ism better off until it is one of "us" that is suddenly on the wrong side of the erosion of civil rights.
Dave
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 05:09pm PT
|
That is better off until it is one of "us" that is suddenly on the wrong side of the erosion of civil rights.
THE HANGMAN
By Maurice Ogden
Into our town the hangman came,
smelling of gold and blood and flame.
He paced our bricks with a different air,
and built his frame on the courthouse square.
The scaffold stood by the courthouse side,
only as wide as the door was wide
with a frame as tall, or a little more,
than the capping sill of the courthouse door.
And we wondered whenever we had the time,
Who the criminal? What the crime?
The hangman judged with the yellow twist
of knotted hemp in his busy fist.
And innocent though we were with dread,
we passed those eyes of buckshot lead.
Till one cried, "Hangman, who is he,
for whom you raised the gallows-tree?"
Then a twinkle grew in his buckshot eye
and he gave a riddle instead of reply.
"He who serves me best," said he
"Shall earn the rope on the gallows-tree."
And he stepped down and laid his hand
on a man who came from another land.
And we breathed again, for anothers grief
at the hangmans hand, was our relief.
And the gallows frame on the courthouse lawn
by tomorrow's sun would be struck and gone.
So we gave him way and no one spoke
out of respect for his hangmans cloak.
The next day's sun looked mildly down
on roof and street in our quiet town;
and stark and black in the morning air
the gallows-tree on the courthouse square.
And the hangman stood at his usual stand
with the yellow hemp in his busy hand.
With his buckshot eye and his jaw like a pike,
and his air so knowing and business-like.
And we cried, "Hangman, have you not done,
yesterday with the alien one?"
Then we fell silent and stood amazed.
"Oh, not for him was the gallows raised."
He laughed a laugh as he looked at us,
"Do you think I've gone to all this fuss,
To hang one man? That's the thing I do.
To stretch the rope when the rope is new."
Above our silence a voice cried "Shame!"
and into our midst the hangman came;
to that mans place, "Do you hold," said he,
"With him that was meat for the gallows-tree?"
He laid his hand on that one's arm
and we shrank back in quick alarm.
We gave him way, and no one spoke,
out of fear of the hangmans cloak.
That night we saw with dread surprise
the hangmans scaffold had grown in size.
Fed by the blood beneath the chute,
the gallows-tree had taken root.
Now as wide, or a little more
than the steps that led to the courthouse door.
As tall as the writing, or nearly as tall,
half way up on the courthouse wall.
The third he took, we had all heard tell,
was a usurer..., an infidel.
And "What" said the hangman, "Have you to do
with the gallows-bound..., and he a Jew?"
And we cried out, "Is this one he
who has served you well and faithfully?"
The hangman smiled, "It's a clever scheme
to try the strength of the gallows beam."
The fourth man's dark accusing song
had scratched our comfort hard and long.
"And what concern," he gave us back,
"Have you ... for the doomed and black?"
The fifth, the sixth, and we cried again,
"Hangman, hangman, is this the man?"
"It's a trick", said he, "that we hangman know
for easing the trap when the trap springs slow."
And so we ceased and asked now more
as the hangman tallied his bloody score.
And sun by sun, and night by night
the gallows grew to monstrous height.
The wings of the scaffold opened wide
until they covered the square from side to side.
And the monster cross beam looking down,
cast its shadow across the town.
Then through the town the hangman came
and called through the empy streets...my name.
I looked at the gallows soaring tall
and thought ... there's no one left at all
for hanging ... and so he called to me
to help take down the gallows-tree.
And I went out with right good hope
to the hangmans tree and the hangmans rope.
He smiled at me as I came down
to the courthouse square...through the silent town.
Supple and stretched in his busy hand,
was the yellow twist of hempen strand.
He whistled his tune as he tried the trap
and it sprang down with a ready snap.
Then with a smile of awful command,
He laid his hand upon my hand.
"You tricked me Hangman." I shouted then,
"That your scaffold was built for other men,
and I'm no henchman of yours." I cried.
"You lied to me Hangman, foully lied."
Then a twinkle grew in his buckshot eye,
"Lied to you...tricked you?" He said "Not I...
for I answered straight and told you true.
The scaffold was raised for none but you."
"For who has served more faithfully?
With your coward's hope." said He,
"And where are the others that might have stood
side by your side, in the common good?"
"Dead!" I answered, and amiably
"Murdered," the Hangman corrected me.
"First the alien ... then the Jew.
I did no more than you let me do."
Beneath the beam that blocked the sky
none before stood so alone as I.
The Hangman then strapped me...with no voice there
to cry "Stay!" ... for me in the empty square.
THE BOTTOM LINE: "...I did no more than you let me do."
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 05:14pm PT
|
|
|
illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 05:34pm PT
|
John Long....check your email/junk mail for I just sent you one. Thanks.
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 06:19pm PT
|
Now if we can only get France to ban France we'd be set...
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
|
The French are particular; they even have a language police and basically speak the same French that Joan of Arc did. L'Academie Francaise would have us all believe this. Not true. France is full of regional dialects, some amounting almost to distinct languages. Particularly langue d'oc in the south, but also in places like Brittany. A high proportion of conscripts into the French army in World War I could not understand their officers.
There's a reason why it's called Parisian French - the version promoted by the Academy is mostly spoken in Paris and Ile de France. But they like to promote the myth that that's "real" or "pure" French. A losing battle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%C3%A9mie_fran%C3%A7aise
|
|
Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 06:54pm PT
|
DMT - I think that one of the rights of this country is freedom of religion, speech and such. You might just sound as bad as Blue does.
Ghost, that's exactly the quote I was talking about.
Thank you
LEB - I agree with Mojede. Is makeup a necessity or do women wear it because their self image is weak or is it the accepted norm for women of the west? I look at makeup, with its toxic chemicals that cause cancer and infertility as a chain of oppression on women with low self-esteem and weak self image.
But then again, i've seen some women w/o makeup, and hoh man, it wasn't pretty.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 07:30pm PT
|
I think the ban doesn't go far enough, they should ban all clothing from the waist up.
I have no problem banning them in schools/public buildings, courts, etc. but everywhere in public? Too much govt. control if you ask me. We see it as oppression but I'm sure many muslim women see it as tradition and feel more comfortable in them. Who am I to say they need to think the way I do? If they don't want to wear them let them make that choice / change their social norms, not the govt.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
|
It strikes me as funny that the same people cheering the French here for banning women's clothing for security reasons would lose their minds if somebody suggested we ban carrying guns in public for security reasons
Peace
Karl
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
|
Now, let's ban Bikini tops for women in the US!! Why should women be FORCED to cover their chests when men don't (and have you seen Fatty's hooters?)
and oppressive clothing. Do us guys a favor and ban neckties! They hurt and they aren't safe either
Peace
Karl
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
|
Now if we can only get France to ban France we'd be set... Will that be before or after the U.S. returns the Statue of Liberty, and agrees to resume being a British colony?
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
|
Yeah, maybe I over-reacted. People should be able to go into gov't buildings like this;
It's their right, after all.
After the fall of Khandahar, Afghanistan women felt differently...
|
|
Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
|
|
|
Jan 27, 2010 - 08:12pm PT
|
"I think, in this case, the defense of burkhas its misplaced idealism."
DMT
I understand your perspective. It's a very nationalist, patriotic perspective. And while I struggle with the terms patriotism and nationalism and also respectfully disagree with your perspective, I feel like the days of hard-headed, unyielding pride in one's country and self need to go the way of the dinosaur.
I was listening to Forum with Krazny on NPR the other evening. His guest was a guy named Jeremy Rifkin who has written many books, the latest being "The Empathic Civilization." He talked about how the industrial age and peak oil have come and gone and now it's time to change our mental state. A shift in our paradigm. He said that basically we can't keep thinking of ourselves and nationalists, or patriots, or loyal countrymen boxed into our little corners of the world, separate from the rest of the globe. We need to start thinking globally, not as a member of a country, but as a member of the biosphere.
And I thought, "wow, this guy really gets it!" It's a crazy thing to think about, but it's a revolution of thinking. And it's not a new idea. We all bleed red. We all are human beings living on the same planet and we are social creatures.
I will be honest with you. I don't like veils, burkas or turbans or traditional eastern clothing or pointy aladdin shoes. But that is not really the center of my argument. It's not for freedom for women's rights. It's not freedom for muslims.
It's about human rights. It's about being able to wear what I want to wear and do what I want to do as long as I'm not hurting anyone else. That has been the cornerstone of America for more than 200 years. So, when I argue about this, it's because I'm looking forward.
Ghost posted the quote but i'll repost it here.
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out."
-Martin Niemöller
When you slowly desensitize people to the elimination of this right, and that right, and this other right, all in the name of security and the fight against terrorism, pretty soon, there are no rights to take because you've given them all up.
It's already happened at the airports and now they are pushing for naked body scanners and machines that read your mind. I kid you not, read it on Marketw#tch.com.
So, really I hope this makes more sense. I'm not looking at rights of Muslims, entirely.
I'm really looking at the BIG picture here.
And no i don't think anyone's beneath you. I think blue is just as nationalist as you and many others. I know he means well. There is hope for him and everyone else. I believe that.
Oh and in case anyone's interested here's the link to that Jeremy Rifkin guy.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-rifkin/the-empathic-civilization_b_416589.html
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!