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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 18, 2009 - 09:54pm PT
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You guys can believe in the "17 Saudis" version of a conspiracy, or the "US Gov was involved" version; but why do you make it into a joke? It seems incredibly important that the American people find out the truth. Even if the "gov involved" people are completely wrong, the very fact that a huge number of Americans believe their government was involved is very serious stuff. Trust in our government is the very glue that holds our country and our society together. Hell, half the members of the official investigation committee themselves (hand picked by Bush) have come to denounce their own 9/11 findings.
Anyway, since it sounds like some of you haven't heard anything about the alternative theory (eg. the claim, and many witnesses, is that explosives were placed in the sub-basement, to take out the central supporting columns) here is a relatively balanced review of the various sides of the debate, from the Canadian Broadcasting. Maybe they're wackos too.
http://dprogram.net/2009/11/29/video-cbc-the-fifth-estate-911-the-unofficial-story/
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Dec 18, 2009 - 10:18pm PT
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Klimmer If you stand against a new investigation then I say that says a great deal about who you are and what you represent. Do you stand for truth and justice, or do you stand for high crimes and treason?
I stand for another glass of wine.
Thats patriotic in this part of the country since its big industry here...
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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Dec 18, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
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golsen-or you can head out to Fintucky and get some meth.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 18, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
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Rockermike,
I watched the programs. Thanks. Pretty balanced for both sides.
The fact remains, we need a new investigation, and I think it demonstrates that well.
Program 3/5 gets into the cell phone questions. Very interesting.
Golsen,
I understand thinking and standing up and saying anything regarding 9-11 and the truth of what happened when you work for the government is hard to do. It is easier to criticize those who do, so you don't suffer any blow-back. I know. Like I said, my dad faces the same issues.
Perhaps one day when you retire and you're collecting a pension you might be brave enough then.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Dec 18, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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Hi SRB, damn we could be neighbors!
Klimmer, I am not afraid. First I would like to thank you in that you believe the government is competent enough to actually pull something off like that, I take that as a compliment since I am a fed. I do not have the same confidence, even if there were someone powerful and evil enough to try it. Second, having been through a number of investigations into fairly complex matters (though admittedly nothing lke 911), there are always inconsistencies and areas that cannot be nailed down.
I do however find it insulting to any reasonable persons intelligence to think that Jesse Ventura has even a slightest clue about what the f%%% is going on.
But hey, balance is acheived by those on all sides of the spectrum so more power to you!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 18, 2009 - 11:58pm PT
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The thermite hypothesis for the WTC was first detailed by Derrick Grimmer of the Scientific Panel Investigating Nine Eleven.
When asked about thermite in the WTC 7 press conference, Sunder pretended that NIST was not aware of the explosive forms of this chemical mixture, called super-thermite or nano-thermite.
Instead, Sunder claimed that thermite could not be applied adequately in order to serve the purpose of a deceptive demolition. Sunder's answer, apart from being vague and unsupported, is also in direct contradiction to the fact that a number of the NIST WTC investigation leaders had expert knowledge of nano-thermites, and that such materials can be sprayed onto surfaces like steel.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Dec 19, 2009 - 12:19am PT
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The fantastic conspiracy theories are also utterly disrespectful to the families and friends of those who died, and their memory.
Anders, that's actually scary. That's the kind of patriotism that comes from exposing yourself to too much propaganda and conditioning. It's like the "either you're with us or you're with the terrorists" threat.
So, either you believe and go along with The Official Conspiracy Theory or else you are being disrespectful to the families who lost loved ones.
Yikes!
Arne
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 19, 2009 - 12:23am PT
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ionlyski
That's exactly one of the reason I came in here so heavy otherwise I would have just shined this thread on.
9/11 family members and independent investigators have had to pursue legal avenues to seek the truth from NIST, including a request for correction that has ultimately been ignored by NIST.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Dec 19, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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Hi Piton Ron,
I remember you sharing once about the explorers who climbed up out of the Colorado to get away from their manical leader, John Wesley Powell. You claim they were murdered in Toquerville didn't you? I think that might have been the case. But that can't be, because the official version clearly states they were killed by indians, right? Conspiracy?
Why do you guys attack with verbal violence, anybody who's not satisfied with the governments Official Conspiracy Theory?
Arne
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Dec 19, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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These threads are just an inevitable flood of idiocy and ego fueled slapfights. They make our political threads look like calm, informed discussions. Not that I'm suggesting that you stop. I have far too much popcorn left.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Dec 19, 2009 - 02:11am PT
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Why do you guys attack with verbal violence, anybody who's not satisfied with the governments Official Conspiracy Theory?
Well, I don't actually recall attacking anyone, is this another conspiracy on your part? :) I actualy just dont buy in to the conspiracy BS. inconsistancies? sure. But does that equal conspiracy? Hardly.
And sorry HDJ, some of us have actually tried to aproach this with some degree of sensibility and reason.
Have a good night.
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apogee
climber
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Dec 19, 2009 - 02:13am PT
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HDDJ nails it.
Good night.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 19, 2009 - 02:20am PT
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found another movie on subject that I hadn't seen before. Pretty good and relatively sober - maybe even sober enough to encourage the "good German" types to think twice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-YqET96OO0
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 19, 2009 - 02:25am PT
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I just wonder if we accused the Bush administration of a conspiracy to invade Iraq without actually believing they were a WMD threat, how many people would deny that.
Wouldn't that be a crime and treason on the highest order? Haven't far more americans died there and more money spent, not to mention thousands of Iraqi dead and millions refugees?
And yet, even though far more evidence and far fewer defenses exist to prove they invaded Iraq based on lies, nobody is asking for an investigation or more facts.
So 9-11 is a joke. No matter how culpable they are found to be, no one will hold them to account, just like no one is in trouble for Iraq
peace
Karl
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 19, 2009 - 03:05am PT
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Friendly reminder, guys.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 19, 2009 - 03:28am PT
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Karl,
You're probably right.
However, I have more faith in the World International community. They are willing to investigate and move forward and find the Bush Crime Family/Neocon GOP guilty of all their crimes they have commited against humanity. May not lead to much, but it certainly will tell the rest of the World they know the truth, and these criminals will not want to ever visit these countries whom find these Neocons guilty unless these monsters want to go to prison or worse.
Eventually, the World is going to lose patience with the US, since we are not doing it, they will have to. I have some faith that may happen.
"Call me a dreamer . . . but I'm not the only one."
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bmacd
Trad climber
British Columbia
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Dec 19, 2009 - 03:54am PT
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Can anybody explain to my hopelessly simple and trusting mind how the secret government cabal managed to pre-place explosives right at the floors where the duped pilots managed to fly the planes into?
The CBC Fifth Estate documentary was well done, and recent - thanks for the link. The Truther in the documentary suggested the 4 planes were not hijacked but diverted to another airport. Alternate planes were used to hit the twin towers according to him.
In that scenario I propose the planes themselves would have been loaded with nano-thermite. The thermite wasn't pre-placed but delivered with the impact of the plane. I am suprised no one hasn't suggested this already, or perhaps someone has.
As far as keeping secrets goes, the US military does a good job of that down at area 51 etc ... why give the government credit when the military is far more capable of just acting on it's own.
I hesitated to get involved in this thread as my "controversy" plate is already full with the invisible telepathic inter-dimensional bigfoot problem .... ;-)
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Currently in San Diego
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Dec 19, 2009 - 10:32am PT
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My old man is an iron worker who worked on the twin towers when they were built.
He knows a thing or two about the structural steel in those buildings and he insists that there is no way the "collapsing floor" explanation is legitimate considering the neat downfall of the buildings. The shear forces necessary to cause the bolts to fail would have caused more warping than it did. That type of structure is engineered to hold multiple times the anticipated load- it is over engineered basically.
Two or three times the anticipated weight(two or three floors collapsing) should not have caused so complete a failure. Additionally one would expect the building to fail in more lopsided fashion since one side would have been structurally weaker from the plane impact.
A slower, more incremental demise of the buildings would have matched up with the official report.
As far as the governments involvement, whether incompetence or direct sabotage, neither option comforts me a whole lot. I dont know enough to speculate about that, but the steel I do know enough to speculate about, and that sh#t doesnt match up with what "they" say.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 19, 2009 - 10:36am PT
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Conspiracy theories seem to be the "soap operas" of the Internet. A great place for mindless activity for people who don't know what else to do.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 19, 2009 - 10:50am PT
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Saying exactly how it was done is difficult. There are many hypotheses for sure and many seem plausable, including the one you (bmacd) just mentioned. Like the Architects and Engineers for 9-11 Truth, I hate trying to guess all that. Just stick to the facts we can prove.
The fact remains, the OCT is invalid. It has been invalidated from so many points of evidence. We don't have to prove how they did it. We don't have to prove where the original jets went. We don't have to prove where the passengers went. All we have to do is prove the OCT invalid and we have accomplished this countless times.
This then demands a new investigation into the truth of 9-11 and not an official white-wash as we have had so far.
I suspect the truth of the matter is more insidious than we can imagine. Read the original documents and what they wanted to do in "Operation Northwoods" at the National Archives, and you will know the evil they are capable of and what they are willing to do.
I do not blame our entire government or our entire military for 9-11-01. I blame rogue criminal elements within our government and within our military. Just like they are so good at doing . . . compartmentalize everything, and then the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. Everyone involved is only given a small task to do and only on a need to know basis. People involved could have been doing the bidding of these "dark overlords" and had no clue what they were actually doing and that they were helping pull-off the biggest false-flag black-op in history. Take advantage of the innocent and exploit them and keep them ignorant of the whole truth and the whole picture.
The government, especially the military-industrial-spy complex is very good at this. They wrote the book on this and have been perfecting it for a very long time.
It does not surprise me now to know that the USA, as a result of these rogue elements within our government, the military-industrial-spy complex have fulfilled the role of the USA now becoming "The Mysterious Babylon" as spoken of in the Bible. It does not go good in the last days for the Mysterious Babylon in the good book. GOD's wrath will be poured out on that nation as a result.
It doesn't have to be this way. But before we can do anything about it, the good citizens of this nation have to wake-up to the truth of what is happening. We can stop this evil and we are instructed to stand against evil and to do so. I hope we have the fortitude and the willingness to do so. Because these demonic rogue elements in our government and military pulling this evil crap off in our name must be stopped.
Edit:
Skipt,
We shoiuld all know how bad it is with the NSA. They are digitally archiving about "15 cabinet fulls" of electronic data every year on all citizens from phone calls, cell phone calls, emails, faxes, whatever we do and there is an electronic record of it, then it is being swept up and archived.
See the absolutely eye-opening account of this in the NOVA program "The Spy Factory":
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/spyfactory/
"Big Brother" is here now in our lives.
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