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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jun 30, 2009 - 10:08am PT
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Similar thing happened in our country to Al Gore, but he is still allowed to live here.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 30, 2009 - 11:16am PT
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Editorial, but it describes the events pretty accurately.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124623220955866301.html
It was an illegal power grab by the president, he was ordered to reconsider, he didn't, the Congress ordered the military to remove him.
No coup.
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Pappy
Ice climber
Warren, VT
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Jun 30, 2009 - 11:38am PT
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Studly, I was about to blast you as a friggin' moron, but then it occurred to me that you are in fact correct. In Honduras, Zelaya was attempting to amend their Constitution so that he could be re-elected, despite a term limit. Unfortunately, under their Constitution only the assembly can call for a referendum to do so, which they declined to do, but Zelaya decided he would illegally proceed anyway. Their Supreme Court ruled this unconstitutional, and the military, who runs the election logistics, complied with the court ruling. In a fit of pique, Zelaya fired the top commander, the Supreme Court ordered him reinstated, Zelaya refused and then led a mob to break into the military installation where the ballots (shipped in from Chavista land) were stored and had his supporters distribute them in defiance of the Supreme Court's order. Faced with an executive in clear defiance of the other two branches of government, the military removed him ~six months before his term should end. What the hell, it is Central America, but you can make a case that faced with a similar situation in the US that we would want a powerful institution to enforce the law of the land as interpreted and supported by Congress and the Supreme Court.
The FL election in 2000 actually tracks similar fault lines between the rule of law and mob rule. Spoiled ballots are a fact of life; thus, the FL legislature had put in rules for dealing with such and recounts, which were scrupulously adhered to. However, one side didn't like the result of that, so demanded that the rules be altered after the fact to putatively reflect 'the will of the people' (despite the fact that every subsequent recount made by third parties indicate that the 'will of the people' was accurately reflected).
I have never been so pissed in my life, and if things had gone the other way I was prepared to take up arms. I would have felt the same way if the positions had been reversed between Bush and Gore. The upshot is that I will never again vote for a Dem until they repudiate the unconstitutional and illegal positions they adopted in 2000.
But what the hell do I know, Al Gore has managed to spin a scientific theory into a multi-million dollar business without the responsibility, so he's probably happier anyway. If he's sharp, Zelaya is now in an excellent position to do something similar.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 30, 2009 - 11:45am PT
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Pappy's right. Read my link above, it's there too.
He was trying to pull a Chavez, with the help of Chavez.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jun 30, 2009 - 12:06pm PT
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I love Latin America.
I've been tear gassed in La Paz. Not because I was taking part in overthrowing their government, which happens frequently, but because I had an (unusual) craving for McDonalds, the path to which took me into the center of some turmoil.
Also was in Lima when the Fujimori government fell. Tanks in the streets and all that.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 30, 2009 - 12:18pm PT
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Pappy you are an idiot.
Please don't breed.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 30, 2009 - 12:59pm PT
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I've been following this for about a week before Zelaya was arrested and given the choice to leave or go to trial. Honduras has had problems forever with strongmen so the last iteration of its constitution provided for some strong provisions on term limits. It's also a crime there to try to circumvent that stipulation with jail terms and a baning from public office for ten years. That's what Zelaya was arrested for. The guy is clearly nuts and even his own party in congress had an investigation going into his mental state and competency.
Here's the worst part, BHO jumped right on this thing supporting a nut case thug. There can only be two equally frightening reasons.
Either he too sees constitutions and the rule of law as a mere impediment to "social justice" and couldn't wait to throw in with fellow thugs, Castro and Chavez, or he's completely clueless to the reality of the situation.
Either way, we're screwed.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 30, 2009 - 01:35pm PT
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I can see how some people may interpret this story the wrong way. Here's how MSNBC is reporting it.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31604879/ns/world_news-americas/
There's brief mention on page 2 of the real situation. The rest is about military dictatorships military coups, etc...
It's not a coup in the traditional sense. The military did remove him, but on orders from the Congress and attorney general.
He was acting counter to the law and their constitution. He's lucky he wasn't arrested.
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Pappy
Ice climber
Warren, VT
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Jun 30, 2009 - 01:54pm PT
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Dipshit wrote:
" Pappy you are an idiot.
Please don't breed."
What a stunningly astute response, replete with data to back up the opinion. Fortunately (I guess), you're too late and my daughter just completed her sophomore year at Middlebury. The good news (for me) is she did pop a perfect score on the SAT so I don't have to pay for her education. The bad news is that some day she will rip you a new one, too, and she's a lot less understanding than I am.
Since we've already established that the action reported as a 'coup' in Honduras ain't actually, I can only assume that your disturbance has to do with my comments on the FL election. I've got the data to back up my position, which is incontrovertible. (after all, I lived through it and unlike most of the bozos on here paid attention at the time--primary sources and all that--rather than having it interpreted for me later by the cute busts identified as TV reporters.) Do you?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 30, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
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Great, now Chavez is threatening an invasion of Honduras. Many of the other leftist buddies of Chavez have cut off trade to Honduras.
I was gonna say we should just stay out of it but now we should probably support the temporary pres of the country.
http://www.examiner.com/x-5325-Orlando-Republican-Examiner~y2009m6d30-Mel-Martinez-to-Obama-Dont-take-sides-on-Honduras
As TGT said, either Obama blundered this or is propping up leftist dictatorships. The sad part is that leftist dictatorships is what sank South America in the past.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 30, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
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Who do you think is acting unlawfully, Dingus? I'm curious which side you're on here.
By WE, I mean our State Dept.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 30, 2009 - 03:33pm PT
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"Since we've already established that the action reported as a 'coup' in Honduras ain't actually, I can only assume that your disturbance has to do with my comments on the FL election. I've got the data to back up my position, which is incontrovertible. (after all, I lived through it and unlike most of the bozos on here paid attention at the time--primary sources and all that--rather than having it interpreted for me later by the cute busts identified as TV reporters.) Do you? "
As I recall, you're the genius who a few years ago defended the South's decision to secede in 1861. Yeah, I'll bet you have the "incontrovertible" data for your position.
And BTW, you should also write a letter to the National Academy of Sciences. I'm sure you have some profound things to inform them about with respect to global warming.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Jun 30, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
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Coup leaders say - "Everything is legitimate and constitutional..."
The rest of the world says - "No it ain't!!!"
The coup is baseless... no real reason for the overthrough of the democraticly elected president... But they are still getting plenty of American weapons deliveries.. thereby supporting the coup...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 30, 2009 - 04:10pm PT
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The coup is baseless... no real reason for the overthrough of the democraticly elected president...
What if Bush was going to propose a vote directly to the American people to see if he could remain Prez for 8 more years? And what he had his own people issuing the ballots going around state Secretaries of State?
Then what if Congress said, "Dude that's unconstitutional", and he went and tried to do it anyway?
What should happen?
Would it be a coup if Congress (and the Supreme Court) asked for his dismissal from office?
JUST SAW THIS EDIT:
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-us-us-reax-honduras,0,5174432.story
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 30, 2009 - 04:16pm PT
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This whole thing stinks.
Smells like...
Chicken Coup!
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Jun 30, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
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I have a co-worker from Honduras. She said the guy was a total kook and that 90% of the people hated him. He was constantly trying to steer the country toward a communist dictatorship and grab more power ever since he was elected after lying about his political beliefs. Today she was ranting that if it were up to her, they would have just shot the guy... Why the hell is Obama supporting this guy? Why is our media reporting it as a coup?
Josh
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 30, 2009 - 11:06pm PT
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It amazes me the way the MSM is reporting this story.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Blue - dude, cut it with the editorials.. they count for nothing but the opinion of the writer.
Your first post struck me as kind of odd in that you state that a certain editorial told something close to what was really happening down there... almost as if you had been there within the last few days or so and have not reported anything here about your adventures....
and I quote " Editorial, but it describes the events pretty accurately."....
and again "It was an illegal power grab by the president, he was ordered to reconsider, he didn't, the Congress ordered the military to remove him."....
Even when you have nothing at stake you take the side of the rich an privileged, and the corporation.
I honestly don't know how this thinking works for you... I hope I don't catch whatever you got.. LOL
We could look into the record prior to the coup to see what this president was really doing. I've heard that he was essentially trying to give the poorer of the country a little help by raising the minimum wage (Honduras is one of the top 3 poorest countries in the region) (don't believe me? Check the facts yourself).
I have to ask myself "Who would benefit from this power grab? that you describe..." oh, yeah.. the common people of Honduras.. right. Then I ask "Who would oppose the lifting of the common people of Honduras?"... oh yeah The companies that hire the common people of Honduras... and those tend to be corporations, and not little private business owners, and corporations tend to be multinational, and more than likely US corporations who get Honduran workers for next to nothing (The president of Honduras requested a thorough study to be conducted to find out what the average wage was in Honduras, and what the standard of living was in Honduras. What they found was that the people, the common people of Honduras were making barely enough for the food they eat.
I don't know about you (possibly a secret member of the upper class, IDK) but if I had a job that paid barely enough for the food I eat... I would definitely want to vote for and keep in office a guy who was putting through legislation that might raise my standard of living.
But then again, that's just me, and I'm a complete idiot about these things.......
Cheers
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