bolts for limestone/sandstone sport routes

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List

This thread has been locked

Messages 1 - 20 of total 22 in this topic

<< First | < Previous | Show All | Next > | Last >>

peter

Intermediate climber

missouri

Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 14, 2002 - 09:18pm PT

I was wondering what brand of bolts you would recomend if equiping a limestone or sandstone sport route. I was thinking either petzl's or fixie 5 piece bolts but i couldn't decide which to use. Any sogestions are appretiatated

Copperhead

Novice climber

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2002 - 09:36pm PT

Don't use Fixe (although stainless is good). Rawl is the way to go. Obviously, lesser quality rock reqires longer bolts than does granite. Stud-bolts (threaded w/ nut, as opposed to 5-piece -blue plastic sleeve) seem to work better in soft sandstone. Sand grains may inhibit the 5-piece sleeve mechanism and may cause the bolt to spin. Bolt length partly depends on if you are drilling with electricity or not. 1/2" could be good in super-soft rock if you have power. Longer bolts are better than shorties, >3". Use stainless - Rawl makes both 5-piece and stud-bolts in stainless.

Andrew

Novice climber

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2002 - 04:10am PT

Depends on the rock quality. You might want to consider glue-ins for softer limestone and sandstone. More work/expensive but stronger.

Camalot_five

Intermediate climber

Austria

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2002 - 04:55am PT

hi Peter!
In Austria mostly limestone is found. We use 3/8 bolts like Chris McNamara does in Yosemite. Their length is about 3 inch (7,5 cm). They last at least for 15 years. Stainless bolts are the best but expensive. For belay stations we use stainless bolts with epoxy (they are "glewed"). In Saxony (Sandstone) they use 10 inch bolts with a diameter from approx. .75 inch. They are also glewed.

Peter Puget

Novice climber

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2002 - 11:41am PT

Hey - C-Head, why are you against Fixe. I have used their 10mm and 12mm and they seem to work fine. I have been using 10mm and 12mm bits by the way. Is there a problem I should be aware of?

Peter

Ryan

Intermediate climber

Dallas

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2002 - 03:01pm PT

Go with Rawl 5 piece 1/2 inch by 4.25 inches long for soft sandstone...I climb alot in the moab area, and that is pretty much the standard out there for softer stone such as in the fishers (moenkopi and cutler) and Indian Creek/castle valley (windgate) and arches (entrada sandstone). The stone is suprisingly pretty hard in these areas, but bolts should be big and long in order to last out there....In some cases stainless bolts arent necessary since the stone will wear away before the bolt even begins to rust away...The hanger will be protruding and the bolt will have to be replaces long before its actually worn out.

Copperhead

Novice climber

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2002 - 06:16pm PT

Ryan- I see you are up on your stratigraphy.

Peter- I think Fixe makes poor quality bolts. I don't have anything against those guys; that's just my opinion from personal experience. The 5/16" buttonheads were made out of weak metal and are junk. When placed along side each other, there is an obvious difference between the Fixe and the old Rawl 5/16". The 3/8" stud-bolts are funky too. I have had the small sleeves fall apart in my bolt bag. The dimples on these sleeves are too small and thus, a perfect hole is required. Sure, it will help if you use a metric bit but even well placed ones seem to loosen and become spinners over time. I've still got some and won't use 'em. Want 'em...?

Peter Puget

Novice climber

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2002 - 07:07pm PT

Thanks for the reply C-Head.

Sadly, I purchased a truck load of their 5/16" for some planned on FA's and then read your earlier posts regarding the 5/16". I sent emails to the usual suspects: ASCA, Fixe spain Fixe USA the only unequivocal response I received was from Fixe Spain. They claimed the bolts were fine. I have decided not to use them. I have placed a bunch of Fixe 10mm and 12mm and have found they worked fine. Never had trouble with the collars. I am placing them in granite.

It is too bad about the funky 5/16" as what I have been doing is using 1/4" and replacing those on rap.

largo

Novice climber

Mars

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2002 - 09:49pm PT

Copperhead wrote that he fancies stud-bolts (threaded w/ nut, as opposed to 5-piece-blue plastic sleeve) for sandstone work. I climb a lot at Malibu State Park, where the rock is like peat moss, and have run ointo problems with the threaded units. Sometimes you have to keep cranking them down so far that you pull an inch or so of stud out and then you can't clip the shuts--is you're installing shuts. I prefer the 5 piece, though we've often had to drill extra holes because the cone wouldn't "take." And with glue ins, I have to wonder if the rock is perfectly horrible, if the glue wouldn't simply yank out the surrounding choss, though the direction of pull would probably work against this. A safe bet might be to simply use the longest bolts you can get (for jive stone) and hope for the best. I'd probably trust the judgement the guy from Moab, since he surely deals with soft rock on a regular basis.

JL

Copperhead

Novice climber

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2002 - 01:20am PT

Peter- The ASCA should not be considered suspect; this is the fault of the manufacturer. Can you return/ send yours back? Ask Fixe to send you test info about the bolts if they say they are fine. The guys at SMC were cool enough to send me lab test data back in ’95 for their stainless hangers that appeared to have micro-cracks in the metal at the 90° bend. Suspect units tested to well over 5,800 lbs. – full strength. I plan to do some tests on the 5/16” Fixe buttonheads and will try to fill you in on my findings.

Largo- Were you using Rawl threaded bolts or another brand? Have you had good luck with 3/8” 5-piece as well as 1/2"??? 3/8” x 2 3/4” to 5+” seemed to work well for us in The Fishers. They all tightened up nicely, even with hand-drilled holes. I don’t think I could say the same for the Fixe 3/8”. I have had them ‘slip’ while tightening, as you described above, in granite.

Happy bolting!

Clementine

Novice climber

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2002 - 03:46am PT

10mm does not equal 3/8in., nor does 12mm equal 1/2in. If you are using a 3/8in. bit to drill a hole for a 10mm bolt, you can expect to have problems. Type of rock as well as how sharp/dull the bit is will also have an effect. Do yourself and everyone else a favour and use the appropriate combination.

Slow and Dumb

Novice climber

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2002 - 05:26am PT

Samuel-

Thanks sooo much for your help. I thought it was all the same. No wonder I can't drive the speed limit...

Ryan

Intermediate climber

Dallas

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2002 - 12:24pm PT

Copperhead, yeah, what can i say, im a geology freak. I always like to learn the goeology of the areas i climb.

The one thing ive learned about soft rock is that the more metal you have touching the rock, the more chance you have of a solid placement. Just like with cams...Wouldnt you rather take a 50 foot whipper on a #3 camalot than a #00 tcu. As with bolts in soft rock, the longer and fatter (1/2 inch by 4 1/4 inch long) the better chance you have of the bolt staying put...The five piece rawl of that length has alot of metal that touches inside the hole. The entire length of the bolt copmpresses and fills the hole with metal. Some of the other threadheads that only have a little cone and sleve at the end dont provide alot of contact inside the hole. Since the rock is soft to begin with, you run the chance of the rock actually fracturing inside the hole thus ripping the bolt.

Largo, I kindof agree with you on the glue ins...Although i havent had much experience with them, they just dont seem like the best bet to me...Those things still kind of scare me. For now, in soft stone, ill stick with the 5 piece rawl as fat and as long as i can get them...

Largo

Novice climber

Mars

Oct 16, 2002 - 03:21pm PT

Yo,

All of those recent statements make good sense to me. The more metal on the rock, the better, et al. Per the screw or threaded style bolts, I've used both the Rawl and other brands and have run into problems with both--though only on soft rock. On good rock, the threaded style have worked well for us. And in fact we've used the 3/8's inchers even in soft rock and they seem to be as sound as the 1/2 inchers, providing they are long-shank (4" or more)-and I go with the statement of longer the better for choss rock.

Ultimately, since so few bolts fail even in soft rock, the question seems to be--which model tends to stay tight the longest. That's the problem we have faced at Malibu, especially on minimum 5.12 routes where everyone wants to take a crack at it and so the bolts sustain dozens of Homeric whippers a weekend. The threaded bolts have tended to slowly loosen up, whereas the 5-piece variety have by and large stayed fairly tight. Maybe there's no definitive solution to any of this, but it's good to read everyone's direct experience, especially from those more science-minded than myself(nearly everyone).

JL

Minerals

Novice climber

so much for classes...

Oct 16, 2002 - 04:00pm PT

>>Copperhead, yeah, what can i say, im a geology freak. I always like to learn the geology of the areas i climb.<<

Ditto.

>>The five piece rawl of that length has a lot of metal that touches inside the hole<<

True, and this is a very good point. I use 5-piece a lot in granite and they seem to be the best, especially for pull-out (tension) strength (though the stud-bolts are nice if you want to repo your hangers or use 2 hangers for soloing (upward pull)...). Maybe I’ve just had bad luck with 5-pieces in sandstone. I haven’t placed ½” 5-pieces but a ½” stud-bolt goes in like a piton... almost no need to tighten it up... Overall, the 5-piece bolts are stronger, both in tension and in shear. See Powers/Rawl site.

http://www.powers.com/mechdesc.htm

http://www.powers.com/data/pwrblt.pdf

http://www.powers.com/data/ps.pdf

>>10mm does not equal 3/8in., nor does 12mm equal 1/2in.<<
>>Do yourself and everyone else a favor and use the appropriate combination.<<
>>how sharp/dull the bit is will also have an effect<<

Hmmm. Let’s see here. I have 3/8” AND 10mm SDS, 3/8” high speed steel, and 25/64” high speed steel bits.

Given a conversion factor of 1 inch = 25.4 mm,
3/8” = 9.525mm (though SDS bits are supposedly slightly larger than 3/8”)
25/64” = 9.921875mm
10mm = 10mm
Therefore, the difference between 25/64” and 10mm is 0.078125mm.
0.08mm is pretty darn small - trivial when considering the precision of hand-drilling. If anything, I would think that these bolts would work better in a tighter hole, as opposed to a sloppy one.
I hate dull bits.

As I have said before, the problem with the Fixe 3/8” stud-bolts is that the sleeve design is inferior. Ryan has stated the importance of surface area contact of metal to rock. When compared to the Rawl stud-bolts, the dimples on the Fixe sleeves are much smaller, i.e. less contact area. I have had these bolts slip while tightening, but eventually they always snuged-up. This just means that the threaded stud part sticks out too far – an annoyance and less metal in the hole. The first pitches of LT are a good example of how these bolts loosen over time in high traffic areas. You’ve also got to wonder when they fall apart in your bolt bag. I have never had a problem with a Rawl bolt. There are other stud-bolts on the market that have a sleeve with three prongs or flaps instead of two large dimples. This design has worked for me although I think the original Rawl Power-stud design is much better.

>>The threaded bolts have tended to slowly loosen up, whereas the 5-piece variety have by and large stayed fairly tight<<

Yup. Hey Largo, any possibility of firing off some of your brilliant humor???

I would never tell someone what kind of parts to put in their car/truck. If you bought cheap parts and had a mechanical failure because of it, then it would be your problem. Bolts, however, are fixed (sometimes not so permanently) and used by all of us (who climb the route). Because of this, I felt the need to say what I have said.

No diss. Just think it’s time to go back to the drawing board...

Cheers all!

Ryan

Intermediate climber

Dallas

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2002 - 04:31pm PT

Awesome info copperhead...also, below is a link to alot of bolt info for those interested. I found alot of good info there.

http://www.safeclimbing.org/info.html

Dave Buchanan

Novice climber

Marin hot tub country, Ca

Oct 16, 2002 - 09:36pm PT

Here's an idea for testing the reliabilty of glue-ins
in shitty rock: On *Feed The Beast* on The Monolith
at Pinnacles, Greg Barnes (ASCA director) and I used 6"
Fixe glue-ins, secured with Hilti C-100 adhesive mortar.

My understanding of the way this type of adhesive mortar
works (not a glue) is that it penetrates the rock
as it expands, and acts as a threaded shaft would.
(It does not bond to the bolt itself)
If anything, the surrounding rock would be strengthened
as it becomes "one" with the bolt -- the bolt acting
essentially as a length of rebar does in concrete.

I seriously doubt that these bolts move at all.
It has been almost 2 years since they were installed.
Any feedback would be most welcome!

When we pulled the existing 3/8" bolts,
2 of them were moving substantially;
one roughly 4 mm or so.
They were probably less than 3 years old.
There are more details on the safeclimbing.org site.

Dave Buchanan

Clementine

Novice climber

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2002 - 04:08am PT

Thanks Cu, I should have taken the time to do the math. I have had problems with Fixe 12mm not tightening properly and had assumed it was because I had drilled the holes using a 1/2in. bit. Sure enough, after shelling out for a 12mm bit, those problems disappeared. Perhaps sharpening the 1/2in. bit may have cured the problem as well. How do you go about this?
Bruce, do you go to the trouble of countersinking the glue-ins? I have always thought that glue-ins were the best solution for softer rock (at least that's what Petzl's and Fixe's technical data seem to suggest), but they look like so much work.

Peter Puget

Novice climber

Oct 17, 2002 - 11:44am PT

Back when the original thread with the 5/16" comments was active I made the same conversion (mm to inches) and then compared the difference to the thickness of the human hair and decided that with all the facotrs involved in placing a bolt on lead if the bit size difference made that much of an impact the design was simply flawed.

The 12mm vs. 1/2" holes do have a distinct difference when placing Petzl Longlife, so I would always suggest using a 12mm for those dudes.

For bolt replacement and sport climbs I am coming to the conclusion that the 5 piece bolts are the best way to go for so many different and unrelated reasons that it is almost (and I hate to use this word) "unethical" to use anything else.

PP