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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 3, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
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Nursing a bad sore throat so I thought I'd put up this question. Is the ascent of a new route or the first ascent of a peak so important that style takes a backseat to success? Some examples:
The Compressor Route on Cerro Torre.
First Ascent of Everest- Should Hillary and Tensing have used oxygen, after all, it was later proven to be unnecessary.
Another way to think about it: Should a climb be judged by the style of the time in which it was done, or should there be some immutable standard that tries to anticipate and respect climbers yet to come.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Its not so cut and dried Jim.
Sometimes "better" style can result in greater resource damage.
I think that the quality of the route (ie, best utilization of the rock) should be paramount.
When it can be accomplished in the best style, then so much the better.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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I'm not fully awake yet so I'll state the obvious.
Route change and so do standards. Aid routes become free routes. Free routes become free-solo routes. I am of the firm belief that as a route changes--due to physical changes in the route, abilities of the climbers or technical aspects of the gear--it in NO WAY diminishes the impact of the first ascent. Compressor Route probably not a fair one to judge against since there is now plenty of evidence that the complete route does not exist. But Hillary and Tenzing using O on E is still a remarkable ascent when you realize they did not have North Face expedition jackets, Asolo boots,ultralightweigt axes and waterproof ropes (to name just a tiny amount of the recent advances.)
Should we wait to do FAs since there will eventually be people more capable than us? No. But we SHOULD do them in the best style of the day. Avoid rap bolting. Avoid oxygen. Avoid fixed ropes. Avoid hammering endless rows of pins when passive/active pro possibilities exist.
Okay... back to sleep now.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Addenda;
if less emphasis is placed on style then perhaps climbers would have less motive to falsify the ascent history as the route will stand as its own statement.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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It does if your GOP!
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WBraun
climber
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A climb should take a considerable consideration of the style of the time in which it was done to be judged.
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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One should only put up routes if they are able to free solo naked (w/o chalk, of course). Everything else is just unnecessary aid.
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WBraun
climber
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Even Free Soloing is aid .....
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hooblie
climber
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does a beautifully crafted love letter matter when exactly, in the arc of a relationship, it is read by the intended? or by others without context? if it blows away in the wind?
or does it just stand and the question becomes existential?
what would (werner) heisenberg say?
if it's a piece of dookee, that's all it will ever be
dookee (does not equal) never happened
make considered choices
take what comes
there, universe unified!
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Taking Werner with you climbing is also Aid---- you are assured of an ascent and thus is effing cheating, clearly. I guess now that I think of it, it would be even worse, like taking a compressor and drills with you. Perhaps the only difference is you can sit on the compressor but Werner would bite.
Some have said that Werner has never free-climbed.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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"Even Free Soloing is aid ..... "
Breathing is aid.
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WBraun
climber
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Yes ....
That's true Peter, on the absolute platform I have never "Free climbed nor free soloed"
I'm a materially condition soul deeply rooted in the 3 modes: Goodness, passion and ignorance.
We are always linked by the rope of knowledge going back to the disciplic succession of the those before us ....
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hooblie
climber
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peter, you said a mouthful there. i chased werner up astroman and the rostrum. don't feel like i can tick off either one.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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if appreciation is not equated with judging, then I'd go along the lines that one must appreciate it 'in context'...
there is no overarching meta narrative to appeal to in the "G"rand scheme of things.
but if we take as our starting point, not some metaphysical search for a metaphysical core, but an idea spoken of, perhaps in history, perhaps in current writing, perhaps in the daily 'end of day beer sessions' that we congregate around as this group called 'climbers'... then there is a dialogue between past, present and future that requires an appeal to something more than just what we have done in the past.
self overcoming as a group? style being the benchmark. Yet we aren't tied to rules individually... do what you want, you're going to anyways... but to earn money from it, some pursuit of truth telling allows the benchmarking to be fair, if you like that kind of game.
man, I must love to see myself post, cuz this stuff flows like b.s. for me...
LOL
more importantly, when will the rain stop so I can go play?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Somebody go ask those baboons. You know they'd love a via ferrata!
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jim
I hope you're not getting the swine flu.
I'm also fighting a cold of sorts, but I'll add my two cents,
even though I've never created a first ascent. I agree with
your points, and also that thought should be put high on the
list before one is done. I'm not sure I'd include Hilary's
ascent of Everest with O2. Just because man didn't know the limits of climbing that high in the early 50's just as in Harding's ascent of the Nose didn't have the hard free climbing
as those limits weren't yet defined at the time. I think
as long as they are reasonable in their efforts, not like Maestri, the ascent is justified. There may be other thoughts
today, certainly in the case of Growing Up on the SF of Half Dome that the first ascencionists may have been better to wait
before finishing it from top down.
In any event, your topic will be hotly debated, and should be
too.
I always liked what Robbins said about 'raising the standard before lowering the climb.' I think with what we know now
that should be a big part before 'justifying the means.'
Thanks for the opportunity to chime in.
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fourmiletrail
climber
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Location factors in too cuz (for example) the next new route on SFHD is gonna be under alot of scrutiny . Bolts per pitch counts and all that .
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Ho man! I just finished watching Frost/Nixon. Obviously I've been taking things too seriously.
But I sure hope Jim hasn't just made a trip to Texas.
(Jim, hope you feel better. Getting a bit ambitious to think that with such a superlative Torre thread that you could start a parallel and tacoans would let you get away with it without passing around a little laughing gas!)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
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Ron,
I watched Frost/Nixon last night. Throat still scratchy, I've noticed that you always ferret out the grey areas in human motivation. Hasn't anyone told you that there was only right and wrong and good and bad?
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