Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
|
Blue Tool (8" prybar) Approved!
But that's Sedona - notorious for loose rock...
|
|
tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 03:41pm PT
|
To me, developing a climbing area is the antithesis of why I climb. When I think development, I picture chainsaws and bulldozers, and the end result is track homes and strip malls. Isn't that what we are getting away from when we climb???
Start from the bottom, work your way up. If you come across loose stuff, pull it off and drop it away from your belayer. If there is some moss and dirt in a crack, clean out what is needed to clean to make it up.
If you take the approach of rapping down, prying away with crowbars, madly brushing lichen etc, then working the lines, aren't you completely missing the point?
I've always been for a good trundle, but I still the approach to climbing should be to conform the rocks as they present themselves to us to the greatest extent possible, vs. beating them into submission.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
|
Depends on your priorities tolman.
Sometimes routes are diamonds in the rough and require one good top down cleaning to create a classic out of a death trap.
|
|
kev
climber
CA
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 03:52pm PT
|
Here's a big question to ask. Will these routes be climbed again? Often you can't evaluate if it's even worth climbing again until you've climbed the route (never mind if anyone else will ever go to said area.) Evaluate the cleaning (and bolting)
after the route has been sent. Don't put in convince anchor (rap anchors every 35m instead of every 60 or 70m) until after the route has proven itself worthy (and only then if you feel it's appropriate). Sure if it a route turns out to be a stellar climb in a place where a bunch of people will climb, re-climb it, remove the belayer slayer loose crap, do what cleaning you feel is ethical and be happy with your ground up line, but don't clean the crap out of a useless piece of jingus choss that will never see a second ascent by anyone other than yourself. Take only what you need. Hummocks are fun to climb on :)
kev
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 03:53pm PT
|
Well, it sounds to me like you already know the answer - that you've been down the other road and understand the results of that path. As for the issue of boundaries, I'd ask if being on one side or the other of some line - even with GPS precision - alters the essentail characteristics and nature of that area? That was a big part of issue with Infinite Bliss in WA, where nothing about being a few hundred yards on either side of a boundary line changed anything about the area. In or out of the the actual wilderness boundary, it was and is a totally inappropriate activity for such an area.
From my perspective, this notion of "boundaries" is also well illustrated in Las Vegas where rapacious development spread right to the very boundary of Red Rock - entirely legal, but was it really necessary and in keeping with the character of what is being preserved in Red Rock proper? Did the city really need to build right to the very line or could it have just as easily respected a one mile, or even half mile, transitional buffer zone between the city and Red Rock?
Yeah, we can whip out our GPS's and shout, "Yeah! We're 20 yards to the good...!", but I try hard to respect what I find in a new area rather arbitrary human-drawn lines on maps.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 03:56pm PT
|
Don't let others dictate terms for a place they've never seen nor be likely to see. Use your best judgment and proceed.
Keep it smart and discrete is my opinion, try and do your best via common sense - not like the idiot in the jeep there. LOL!
|
|
Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 03:58pm PT
|
Couchmaster: history behind that picture?
|
|
tooth
Mountain climber
Guam
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
|
It depends. If no one will ever be there again, it doesn't matter how much you clean it up - Mother Nature will cover it over again. Just don't leave toxic waste.
|
|
TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 04:01pm PT
|
If you don't own the land, then the question is best put to the landowner or steward!
One of the best bouldering areas in the state is likely forever closed because somebody ignored this fundamental principal.
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 04:03pm PT
|
Lazy Eye, it looks like you are from SLO? I think I am going to spend the summer there, so do what it takes and get busy!
Yeah, I'd say the 8" bar for Sedona borders on extreme environmentalism!
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 04:04pm PT
|
You answered your own question: "...we were pretty destructive." Is that acceptable? It doesn't sound like you think so.
If I had to add a pry bar, bottle jack and a wire brush to my gear list to go do a new route, I wouldn't bother. It's a waste of good climbing time.
Priority: The best route on the best rock possible.
If the stone is a piece of sh*t to begin with, there isn't anything you can do to change that, no matter what 'gem' is envisioned beneath the choss.
 ec
|
|
drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 04:09pm PT
|
"If the stone is a piece of sh*t to begin with, there isn't anything you can do to change that, no matter what 'gem' is envisioned beneath the choss."
Smith Rock?
|
|
bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
|
I hope you are not talking about SLO.
We have enough problems with that type of behavior already. Please don't mess it up for the rest of us.
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 04:22pm PT
|
You know, I can think of a lot more reasons not to develop a new area than to develop it, mostly in relation to what I have observed of 'developments' that are done more for the convenience of person(s), or for their own aggrandizement- usually when this has been the motivation, the 'development' has not been worth the destruction and impact.
Not aiming this at the OP in particular, but climbers tend to be a pretty self-oriented lot when it comes to 'development', methinks.
|
|
Darryl Cramer
Social climber
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
|
Up here in the leafy green NW the moss grows so fast that by the time you clean to the bottom of a route it’s already green again back on top.
For 50 years climbers have been cleaning and trundling at Index. A few weeks ago a climber was (on rap) trundling blocks and drilling anchors up high up when an old lady started yelling at him from the ground. She left him a note stating that she wanted to talk to him about his “routing practices” and then posted “No trespassing” signs all around the area. Turns out it was the owner and after a break of 60 or so years she was planning on reopening the quarry and didn’t want climbers getting in the way.
|
|
bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 04:30pm PT
|
hammer, chisel, crowbar, wire brush, bolt-on holds, epoxy, chainsaw, dynamite.
that'll do 'er, git 'er done!
call me when the guidebook is out.
|
|
bwancy1
Trad climber
Here
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
|
If you're talking about 166 area or Indians you might want to talk to Tom. Indians and Wagon Caves have some access issues including a ban on new bolting. There is a agreement between Climbers, the Forest Service, and the Local Tribe. One needs to tread lightly there.
If you're talking about 58 area, it would be worth talking to Ken.
Anyway, my opinion on cleaning is the same whether it is at Bishop, or Big Rocks. Email me if you want to connect with the locals who inevitably know about and are active in the area you are proposing.
|
|
atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
|
"So, I'm curious what other people think about route cleaning."
100% your call. Your the one who has seen the route potential. Have fun!
|
|
TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 05:22pm PT
|
How would you feel about some random guy cleaning your house, your driveway, or your car?
Maybe he pulls the ivy off your chimney and drills a few bolts!
If you don't own it, it ain't your decision!
Hans Kraus spotted the beautiful Trapps cliffs in the Shawangunks. Before he climbed there he found out who owned and asked permission.
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
|
Apr 16, 2009 - 05:58pm PT
|
So Darryl, was the old dear going to reopen the quarry or was her decision influenced by the mentioned climber's tactics. Just curios.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!