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BillL
Trad climber
NM
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 13, 2008 - 12:14pm PT
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Above all, I hope Trevor and Claire have a speedy and full recovery. I also would rather not see the accident dismissed on general terms such as "it was inexperience". Maybe it was inexperience - I've been there (and still am in some circumstances).
In the thread "Suicide 100'er", there was indication that more facts were being sought. It was also stated that accident analysis would be better in a thread other than that one. I'll suggest that this thread be for restating already known facts, posting new facts, and analysis of those facts.
Bill L
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BillL
Trad climber
NM
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2008 - 12:37pm PT
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What I believe are facts from the thread "Suicide 100'er". Much of these are courtesy of Llama. Please post up if I've gotten something wrong or new info comes to light.
a) the climb was Captain Hook, http://www.mountainproject.com/v/california/tahquitz__suicide_rocks/suicide_rock/105790400?highlightphrase=captain+hook
b) the two-piece belay anchor was at a ledge at the top of the first pitch; the anchor included a cordalette, a #3 DB cam and a nut;
c) leader had just started up the second pitch;
d) first pro placed on lead was a #1 BD cam at roughly 20 feet out from the belay;
e) leader climbed past the cam about another 5 feet and fell;
f) the #1 BD cam pulled;
g) leader hit belayer resulting in loss of conciousness of the belayer;
h) leader continued falling while belayer remained unconcious for some time on the ledge;
i) some time during 'g' and 'h' both anchor pieces came out and remained with Claire on the ledge along with the #1 BD cam;
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BillL
Trad climber
NM
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2008 - 01:03pm PT
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I would suggest we not focus on experience level of the climbers or second guess the decision making (locker, I'm not referring to your note). As an indication of the direction I hope this thread will take, here are current questions that come to mind as well as others gathered from the other thread (I may have missed something):
a) was the cordelette knotted?
b) how were the two anchor pieces set for direction of pull (e.g., upward/downward)?
c) does the rock present less than desirable placements (granted it was run out)?
d) do any of the pieces show signs of destructive stress?
e) how was the belayer attached to the anchor?
f) what type of sling was on the #1 BD? Quickdraw? 4 foot runner?
g) does the belayer recall being pulled upward before the #1 BD pulled out?
h) where was the anchor relative to the belayer's position? At the head? waist? feet?
More generally, perhaps one goal of the analysis,
i) is it reasonable that the three pieces would have pulled even though they were individually solid placements?
Lastly, in going over the other thread I just noticed this note: "No capping til the last person gets out of the hospital, thats the rule, right?" My sincere apologies if I've violated that. I understand that the belayer is out of the hospital but have not heard about the leader. Perhaps someone could post here when they are both out.
Bill L
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 13, 2008 - 01:16pm PT
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Only the players involved can answer these questions.
My gripe is the 1st piece being 20' off the belay. Not cool. Especially if it's marginal. Place sh#t gear early to get the rope pulling off the upper pieces...even if it's crappy.
Zipper...zzzzttt!!! I'm off!!!
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BillL
Trad climber
NM
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2008 - 01:28pm PT
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From bluering: "Only the players involved can answer these questions."
I agree. A large number of answers depend on the players and then there can be some analysis. But I'd prefer to not focus on where mistakes were made. The curiosity about how far our gear-craft can/can't be pushed is enough to fill this thread.
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Michael D
Big Wall climber
Napoli, Italy
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Sep 13, 2008 - 02:21pm PT
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I hope the two climbers recover soon, and are able to enjoy the outdoors again.
I recently experienced a situation where Navy Junior Officers were trying to teach themselves to lead and place pro via reading step-by-steps from Freedom Of The Hills. They would bring the book to the crags with them, and proceed to "figure it out." At the time, I was running a FREE to participants guide service. The upshot is, a person would place a cam, declare it 'bomber' and everyone would say 'right-on', 'great', 'awesome' without really checking it. Due to this observation, we started diligently checking anchors and evaluating each others pro on club climbs 'for the fun of it', nothing personal, just good, positive feedback.
It relates to the two at Suicide, in that, did the same person place the anchor and lead pro? With only one set of eyes on the system, it may look satisfactory. With two sets of eyes, someone may say 'dude, if you flip the cam the lobes lay better.'
This all sounds simplistic, but I've had buddies ask 'hey, your safety on?' just for the heck of it. You check, smile, and reply 'thanks Bud.'
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Llama
Big Wall climber
The bubble that is Irvine, CA
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Sep 17, 2008 - 12:56am PT
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Thanks for the interest... as was stated before...only those involved would truly know. That being siad, Trevor doesn't remember anything about the route or even driving out there to begin with. Maybe that will come back some day. Claire told me what she remembers which is what I posted in the original thread.
Now, I do have access to all of their gear and when I'm back from my adventures in The Ditch I'll examine this. I'm not sure how the cordelette was equalized (knot/sliding x, etc)
I plan to go climb the route when I get back to try to better understand the scenario and hoepfully fill in some of the gaps in the story.
All of the details listed in the begining were accurate, the additional questions, I have yet to get answers for.
As for Trevor and Claire, both are recovering very well. Claire had her surgery and is back to normal life. Trevor is back at school and having fun explaining his Halo brace to everyone. In fact, we were grabbing lunch the other day and I brought the Tahquitz guide with me.... some folks commented on that fact haha
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Sep 17, 2008 - 01:33am PT
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Well, until the facts are out let me speculate. Sure sounds to me like there was no upward pull anchor. Long fall yanks belayer up and dislodges two downward oriented anchor pieces, THEN upper pro pulls and there is nothing left. That's why we are taught to use upward anchor pieces although too many don't bother. And I even say that it is more often then not the more experienced climbers that tend to lighten up on acnchor. Slam in two quicky pieces the yell "on belay".
at least that's my guess given scenario as described.
best wishes to the victims
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BillL
Trad climber
NM
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2008 - 07:22am PT
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Llama,
That is good news! Sounds like their lives are well on their way to getting back to normal.
Thanks.
Bill
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 17, 2008 - 09:17am PT
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Glad they will live.
As far as the first piece twenty feet up, I don't know that climb, but is it possible that that is the only placement worth anything off the belay?
One more thought. if the cam at the belay was the first to go, then surely it could not have been very well placed. The red camelot is a seriously useful piece, but maybe it was the wrong one for the job?
Two piece gear anchor is not enough.
NO upward pull piece ( already noted) is a bad idea.
Bad luck was a huge factor-- I mean, how many times do you hit your belayer in a fall and knock them unconscious????
BUT then that's why you do things like check your rappel set up EVERY time LIKE IT'S YOUR FIRST TIME EVER, and you want to get it right-- you NEVER know when bad luck will conspire with a slight lapse to try to kill you.
I'm boiling it down partly to the wonderfully true cliche, "Complacency Kills", and it's corollary, "Inexperience Kills".
PS thanks for a real climbing thread. Accident threads are really about the ONLY sort that we can actually learn from, and that always seem to have something valuable to offer.
They also serve as a reminder that "This could happen to ME", and so at least have the potential to prevent the same sort of thing occurring with another party.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 17, 2008 - 11:54am PT
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Loss of memory is fairly frequently encountered in such situations. That does not mean there will be no long term adjustment. I believe every person has a lifetime risk budget. That budget can be used up in a minute or it can be used up over a lifetime. If this is true and you wish to enjoy climbing for many years, you need to climb within your limits. Increase your ability and those limits move out.
Alpine climbing and its subjective risk, is another animal altogether.
A couple comments. A belayer who weighs much less than the leader absolutely needs to provide for their motion in the event of a fall. When you can't get a piece protecting against an upward pull, switching leads might be an option. Also the leader should make sure the first piece above the belay is bomb proof. If you can't get a bomb proof placement above the belay, seriously consider rappelling.
When cams first came into being, many of us distrusted them. When a cam moves it will move to a wider place. In a flared crack, wider is out.
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Michael D
Big Wall climber
Napoli, Italy
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Sep 17, 2008 - 01:03pm PT
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Llama, thanks for the updates on Claire and Trevor. It sounds like Trevor is making the most of his Halo...we played an awesome trick on a buddy with one. While he was sleeping, we tied a toy spider between the bars, so it hovered in front of his nose. When he woke up, it took a second to focus and comprehend what it was, then the mayhem began! :) Those whacky Army guys :)
Good luck on the follow up investigating.
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