Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 26, 2005 - 11:57am PT
|
I know we've hit on this in various topics, but let's cetntralize some of the commentary(sorry for the climbing related post)
Lambone's comment is on the front page right new re: WDD, there's also been issues w/ it on Zodiac, and the Lowe route in zion to name a few recent examples
Free climbers claim it's an advancement in style, thus bolts are ok
Aid climbers rightly argue that it changes the character of an existing line, no different than say, nailing the stovelegs.
let the flaming begin
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2005 - 12:00pm PT
|
Calling Doctor Coiler, Doctor Coiler to the Flame Room, Doctor Coiler...
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2005 - 12:07pm PT
|
If free climbers have to add bolts to an existing route inorder to do it...plust string up miles of fixed ropes for months...then that is no way by todays standards "an advancement in style."
I'd like to try and hear one person argue that point. Anyway, the pitch where said bolts were added is protected with fixed gear anyway. Skinner is a pussy, that's the bottom line.
|
|
Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Sandpoint, Idaho
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2005 - 12:15pm PT
|
If you change a route to climb it in "your" or a new style & it affects the character of the route for other users, that's a load of BS and you deserve a good swift kick in the jimmy.
Plenty of unclimbed rock out there to be fukkin up someone elses experience.
I'm not an aid climber (done it, thought it sucked, props to those who like it), but fully understand that if I go to free a previously established aid climb and replace the manky 1/4 buttonhead that protects the 50 ensuing foot hooking section with a fat beefy 1/2 supersteel that I'd be ruining the experience that said aid climbers were expecting/looking for.
It should be common sense.
|
|
David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2005 - 12:19pm PT
|
A couple of people have mentioned the word "style". That's what this all boils down to and it's also why this conversation will go around in circles forever.
|
|
Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2005 - 01:37pm PT
|
ok, now that we've got some opinions i'll throw my .02 in
i'm against adding protection to established routes, especially bomber fixed pro in the middle of a crux aid pitch. i agree that freeing a route should involve more than getting really strong and memorizing sequences, dealing with the nature of the route's pro should be part of the challenge.
i'm not sure if i agree with the button head commment, replacing old gear is ok in my book, but bolt for bolt, rivet for rivet, etc. fixed pins may be an exception
i guess it's those grey areas i'm curious about, most people here probably agree that adding new bolts where there were previously none is wrong
finally, i agree that it's a stylistic point, but as long as we've got to share the rock, we may as well at least try to understand each other's stances
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2005 - 01:39pm PT
|
Free Climbing vrs. Aid Climbing may allways be a question of style...and it may never be answered as to which is more bold, noteworthy, fulfilling, etc....
BUT, bolting on established routes for the sake of your own benefit is a matter of ingnoring and defying well established ethical standards that has made Yosemite and many other climbing areas the great places they are...
What if it was a route with more prolific history? What if I went up and bolted the "Hook or Book" traverse so that I could free climb it?
|
|
nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2005 - 01:45pm PT
|
Lambone said "Skinner is a pussy, that's the bottom line."..
bwaahahahaha... that's funny. We had a rough draft of "Tough don't rub off" that he wrote with us in the Vamps. What a load of ___. At the Inconnu there are some framed picts from Skinners trip to the Cirque. We'll be sending some photos up to Warren. I'm almost saddened to occupy the same wall space.
|
|
Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Sandpoint, Idaho
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2005 - 01:47pm PT
|
Trashman, I don't know if the buttonhead comment is correct (like I said, Aid ain't my bag) but I was under the impression that it was bad "style" (here we go again) to change the protection on hard aid. If one of Klaus's nightmares has big runouts on older bolts, is it OK to beef them up with bigger new ones.
Or is it like you said, bolt for bolt, rivet for rivet is OK but a bolt where a rivet was is the bad style?
Purely speculating, I don't pretend to know what the real story is.
Would like to though.
|
|
steelmnkey
climber
Phoenix, AZ
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2005 - 01:51pm PT
|
Blowboarder wrote:
--if I go to free a previously established aid climb and replace
--the manky 1/4 buttonhead that protects the 50 ensuing foot
--hooking section with a fat beefy 1/2 supersteel that I'd be
--ruining the experience that said aid climbers were
--expecting/looking for.
--
--It should be common sense.
Common sense? Are you really saying that you should never replace a manky bolt because everyone expects it to be crap and that's how it ought to stay?
There was some pinhead in my local area who was arguing that 1/4" bolts (protection for free routes) placed by Bill Forrest 30+ years ago should never be replaced by new 3/8" bolts because it would "change the committment level of the routes."
Unless I'm understanding what you said here, you're saying something very similar?? I don't agree with that viewpoint at all.
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2005 - 01:55pm PT
|
I would like to know what the real story is too. How many new bolts on WDD, and where...
Blowboarder, you are getting into the grey area between replacement and retro-fitting. Generaly no one argues about bolt-for-bolt or rivit-for-rivet (sometimes size and type of hardware makes a difference, as well as hole re-use), but rivet-for-bolt...will raise some eyebrows and get complaints from some...but not others. Tangerine Trip is the classic example. In general most people support efforts like the ASCA to upgrade dangerous hardwear, however sometimes their techniques are questionable.
Fixed head or beak-for-Bolt definately crosses the line. Imagine an aid pitch where you once had to know how to place heads and beaks or else take big whippers possibly on to a ledge now being safely protected by new shiny bolts. A ruined aid pitch in my opinion. For what, so one guy can chalk up another FFA on his tick list and get in a magazine, it's bullsh#t.
|
|
nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2005 - 02:20pm PT
|
*nature* points up and says "What Lambone said".
I did the Trip before and after the replacement effort. There is still a ton of junk on that route (counted about 20 bolts within arms reach at one belay). I don't now that hangers were required - since there's a pitch where all the dowels were replaced with button heads with no hangers and thus requiring a rack of rivit hangers. Personally, I think they overkilled it on The Trip. But then again, I didn't make the effort so I'd hate to send them a bad vibe - I appreciate the effort to the umteenth extent!
The arguement that you should replace size-for-size blows in my mind. 1/4" suck for free climbing - they might have been bomber for the first but the idea that you do the route "in the style" of the FA is bogus after 20 years of rust. They had 'em bomber at first (new 1/4" bolts are not *that* bad), but after time they degrade. I say bolt it for the long haul if you are drillin' the fu(king hole.
Is there anyone out there that'd argue the Trip should have been replaced with crap-ass aluminum? (serious question). Anyone?
As far as retroing a klaus route, what's the point? How many have seen a second much less have anyone even consider it?
As far as style goes (RE: the hubers, et al), I've little room to comment. Other than to say perhaps "style" isn't the word (good or bad). There is more to it than just style IMHO.
carry on...
Doug
|
|
bigwalling
climber
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2005 - 02:32pm PT
|
nature, i'm not really giving a sh#t about those coming after me. They don't like the bolts... well f*#k them! Lead bolts on ground up, I'd got with 1/4's for free and machine heads for aid. For belays a 3/8 and a rivet or 1/4 incher is good.
Adding bolts is lame and sackless. I can't really comment on adding fixed gear to free cause that isn't my game at all.
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2005 - 02:35pm PT
|
just to clarify, this discusion has split into two tangents...
1. Bolt addition
2. Bolt replacement
keep in mind the orgiginal topic was about adding new bolts where others did not exist...next to cracks even, because people don't have the sack to trust aid placements for free climbing.
that's all.
|
|
nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2005 - 02:38pm PT
|
bigwalling, nor should you. To each his own. Cool by me. If I'm putting them in then I'll be putting them in to last. We all climb for our own reasons and it's not my place to say if that's right or wrong for others. In the vamps I put in a belay with a 3/8" and a 1/4" and caught sh#t for it. I could care less. I asked "ya'll ever had a bolt blow on you?". The conversation ended. Though I will say I picked up a handful of the hilti(?) stainless 1/4". Considering how our rack rusted after just a few weeks it was probably not a bad move.
|
|
Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 26, 2005 - 02:46pm PT
|
Lambone, this was the direction i was hoping the discussion would take, like i said, adding bomber half-inchers where there were none is sorta a no brainer for most arguing here.
i understand the sentiments re: changed free routes due to new hardware, but it doesn't seem to make any sense to go to all the work of replacing hardware, just to end up w/ more mank.
another tangent to chew on, as placements become blown out, should a dowel be used to keep the excitement up, or do you put a bolt in as long as you're drilling?
|
|
nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2005 - 02:49pm PT
|
Rather than stating my opinion... If it's me, and I'm drilling the hole, it will be filled with something good. I'll care less about keeping the excitment up. Adding a hole next to a blownout head placement is apples VS oranges to me.
Oh, and isn't this sort of discussion sort of illegal around here? Climbing discussion! How could we!!!
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2005 - 02:52pm PT
|
"Lambone, this was the direction i was hoping the discussion would take, like i said, adding bomber half-inchers where there were none is sorta a no brainer for most arguing here."
why are you trying to steer the discussion away from the issue at hand?
This is what was posted on the Wet Denim Daydream route beta page:
"But someone is trying to free this route and has added many bolts to the left of the A3 section. You can climb up to a newly added bolt and then go right into the A3 section."
The issue is:
Bolts placed on WDD, an A3 pitch protected with heads and beaks and blades. I was exited to do this route soon, now I'm just pissed. If I ran into that fuc'n Skinner guy I'd give him a piece of my mind.
The bolt replacement issue has been drilled in many other threads, do a search and look them up or start your own discussion in a new thread.
|
|
Blowboarder
Boulder climber
Sandpoint, Idaho
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2005 - 03:29pm PT
|
Wasn't trying to piss anybody off or tell them how to climb, just expressing my stance on it. Wasn't trying to go OT either.
To clarify: New bolts on existing aid routes for the purpose of freeing them that changes character of said aid route=BAD.
Replacing old mank on free climbing routes with bomber new gear=GOOD
Adding new bolts while replacing old mank of free routes=EXTREME VAGINITUS
Kind of funny this thread comes about now. Couple months ago I found this roof crack coming out of a cave on this wall way behind and up the mountain from most of the established routes. Looked freeclimbable at somewhere around 12+ but protection once it pulled the roof onto headwall above was nonexistent as it turned into tips lieback offset seam. So I'm working it on TR (nice fat tree at the top) and figuring out the moves and gear sequence. Becomes obvious that a cam in the last good jam under roof will protect to there but after pulling heinous moves into lieback and moving up 5 or 6 feet any fall will be a groundfall. So do I add two bolts to headwall (the necessary # to keep a climber off the dirt) between last good gear placement and the pod about 20' up headwall (which will take #3 cam).
Looking closely for potential micronut placements (I've never placed a bolt and am not anxious to get started), I discover that the crack has been pinned before (probably KB or LA).
Do a little calling around, couple guys had aided it 15 years or so ago, still go aid it for practice every now and then, route doesn't see any other traffic.
I don't even ask, it's now just a TR project, maybe they'll scar out a gear placement after enough aid ascents and the headwall will take something tiny.
Gotta send it before I worry about leading it though.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 26, 2005 - 03:29pm PT
|
I thought the original concept of climbing was to do it free without aid. When someone adds bolts to protect an original aid climb to free it, what can be done?
Don’t clip the bolts and aid it as you would.
“EEEgad we can’t do that, all those bolts look like sh-t”.
“That motherf-cker poser!”
“It’s not natural!”
Leave it as it is, some will say. But still others will do the opposite. I believe some kind of compromise must be done. Otherwise wars, pestilence famines and whatnot will remain forever. Unfortunately this is the path we’ve chosen…. some by fate and others by karma. Utopia …..where will we find it?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!