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Jody
Mountain climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 9, 2008 - 02:32pm PT
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A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, 'Let me explain the problem with religion.' The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.
'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'
'Yes sir,' the student says.
'So you believe in God?'
'Absolutely.'
'Is God good?'
'Sure! God's good.'
'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'
'Yes.'
'Are you good or evil?'
'The Bible says I'm evil.'
The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible!' He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'
'Yes sir, I would.'
'So you're good...!'
'I wouldn't say that.'
'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'
The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?'
The student remains silent.
'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.
'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'
'Er...yes,' the student says.
'Is Satan good?'
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'
'Then where does Satan come from?'
The student falters. 'From God'
'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'
'Yes, sir.'
'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'
'Yes.'
'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'
Again, the student has no answer. 'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'
The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.'
'So who created them?'
The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. 'Who created them?' There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. 'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'
The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'
'No sir. I've never seen Him.'
'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'
'No, sir, I have not.'
'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'
'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'
'Yet you still believe in him?'
'Yes.'
'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?'
'Nothing,' the student replies. 'I only have my faith.'
'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'
The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat?'
'Yes,' the professor replies. 'There's heat.'
'And is there such a thing as cold?'
'Yes, son, there's cold too.'
'No sir, there isn't.'
The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. 'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees.'
'Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'
Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.
'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'
'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'
'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word.'
'In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'
The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. 'So what point are you making, young man?'
'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'
The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can you explain how?'
'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.'
'It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.'
'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'
'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'
'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'
The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'
The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.
'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.'
The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter.
'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.'
'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'
Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.
Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I guess you'll have to take them on faith.'
'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?'
Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'
To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'
The professor sat down.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jody, Science Profs and Philosophy Profs are as different as the student's night and day.
Cute read, though. I heard similar stuff from a biker philosophy professor at MSU.
By the way, philosophy is about as much "science" as is Political Science, my chosen degree. Both are as full of shite as it comes, but both provoke thought and discussion, which is good for humans in the long run.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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We live in a expanding Universe and have no idea of what exists outside it. That is a fact. How can one believe in a God if no evidence exists, that is kind of crazy would not you say.
But why do we need to trust in a higher power.
If this is my only life and I knew it for a fact, I would still try to do no harm to others and help those I could from suffering.
Our Universe contains 500 billion Galaxies (Hubble Deep Field), A single Galaxy contains a few hundred billions Stars. Each star has planets. That is a lot of life in the Universe.
Lost Arrow
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randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
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So...where was the science??
-JR
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scuffy b
climber
Stump with a backrest
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Is God opposed to science?
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scuffy b
climber
Stump with a backrest
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Will there be a sequel?
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WBraun
climber
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Is Satan good?
On the relative platform no.
On the absolute platform, Yes!
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KuntryKlimber
Mountain climber
Rock Hill, SC
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you can't smell or taste CO either, but black diamond still says not to cook in your tent. was that an english professor?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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About 200 posts from now, Werner and Jody will agree to meet in person to carry on the real discussion.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jody...was that taught in fifth grade Sunday School??
I really like the last part. The absented of god makes you evil. That should really scare the little buggers into believing.
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ontos
Boulder climber
Washington DC
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Absence of god???
Isn't god supposed to be infinite; which is to say without limit; which is to say everywhere. Ergo god is either not infinite or part evil QED; either way you're a heretic.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Yes he/she is, he/she is also suppose to be all-loving, all-caring, all-knowing...just don't cross him or her...your ass is grass.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Nice OP.
Here's the "course description" related to the link JdF posted above:
Course Overview:
"This class is designed to be an up to date summary of the last 10-20 years of observations relevant to Cosmology. During this period several new kinds of theories and observations have come into existence and our expectations of a simple and well-behaved large scale universe are proving to be naieve. Also gone is our perception of a quiet expanding local universe and a sensible large scale galaxy distribution. Theory today is bombarded by a vast array of observational data but there remains no clear and preferred model for the origin and evolution of structure in the Universe. This will be the principal theme of the course: to outline in understandable terms what the latest observations are and how they are either consistent or in conflict with competing cosmogenic scenarios. In particular, we will focus on why structure formation scenarios are largely inconsistent with the observations. This is particularly evident when you look at the power spectrum of the galaxy distribution." Maybe the generally accepted easy answers aren't quite adequate after all.
To my mind Science and Religion aren't at war with each other, but a fundamentalist understanding of religion and a fundamentalist understanding of science are incompatible.
Naive is a good word. Scientism has produced too many BS's in biology or physics that don't understand the more profound issues in their respective fields. So you get the half educated propounding half thought ideas as an ideology, not open minded science seeking Truth.
Similarly with simplistic theists.
The question I like to pose is "what is the source of reality?" The theists say "God", ie. generally understood as a conscious being. Perhaps naive and far fetched no doubt but plausible. The materialists insist NO, the source of reality is the big bang. Then they put on their self-confident mortarboards and try to walk out of the room. But the issue of ultimate causation isn't so easily dismissed. Any smart 12 year old would ask the next obvious question: "What was the cause of the big bang?" So round and round the conversation goes. The two chioces are "First came conscious being then matter", or "first came unconscious matter then consciousness". When dealing with the origin of origins no one can prove anything. Everyone is guessing and hoping and projecting their own desires to a degree. Some prefer the teachings of the elders, others have confidence that they will find answers in their telescopes.
Personally I find fundamentalist scientists boring; as are simplistic religionists.
But if there is a God, the very ambiguity of his location and nature and desire is also part of his perfect creation. Only humility can harmonize it all.
Undermining the whole argument my own spiritual teacher has said, "ultimately the divine being lives in the hearts of the saints." There is no "out there" in which to find him. No telescope can spy on God. Only a sea of consciousness in which we swim.
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scuffy b
climber
Stump with a backrest
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Doesn't God believe in evolution?
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Paulina
Trad climber
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DMT, it's one of my favorite books!
I love how Gaiman treats the whole gods thing as literal creations of the human belief, who are just as strong as the humans make them, and who crave worship any way they can get it. Like the Isis episode in Sandman.
As for the whole 'evil = absence of god' thing, isn't it funny? Some people will interpret it as "if you see bad things, people who do them are bad", and others will interpret it as "if you see ungodly people, whatever they do is bad".
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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"I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create evil. I the LORD do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The thread might be better titled "Science AND Religion". Though it seems much more that religion has to accommodate its beliefs to physical reality, rather than the reverse.
Somehow the believers have to figure out how they fit in - if they want to deny the validity of scientific theory, then they have to be prepared to disavow many technologies we take for granted.
There was a picture in the paper the other day of your presidential candidate, Huckabee, who is a Christian fundamentalist. It showed him using his Blackberry - a device based on advanced technologies, that are in turn dependent on "theories" that fundamentalists claim are "only theories". No theory of quantum mechanics = no microprocessors = no Blackberries/computers/airplanes/advanced weapons etc etc etc.
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