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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Dec 12, 2007 - 12:20am PT
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Gotta be true.
It's on the internet.
There's no bullshit on the internet.
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 12, 2007 - 12:40am PT
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Karl, here is Mineta's testimony:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDfdOwt2v3Y
How you guys can turn shoot-down order into stand-down order or think the shoot-down order applied only to flight 93 is beyond me.
Hamilton and Mineta (both dems) are crystal clear about the issues.
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fairweather
Mountain climber
Roseville, CA
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Dec 12, 2007 - 12:41am PT
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You've convinced me Karl - I'm going to vote for Hillary, to get some honesty and integrity back in our government.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2007 - 01:05am PT
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I disagree. Mineta claims he never heard a "shoot down" order. His timeline for Dick Cheney being there conflicts with Cheney's own claims by 30 minutes. In this case, a significant difference as the Pentagon was attacked.
Here's Mineta clarifying somewhat.
http://www.jonesreport.com/articles/260607_mineta.html
and copies of the actual policy for shooting down hijacked airliners which was changed in June 2001 to stand down rather than shoot down.
Here's David Ray Griffen's rundown of the whitewash of fact regarding intercepting the aircraft
http://www.globalresearch.ca/PrintArticle.php?articleId=1478
And, more evidence that there was no shoot down order
http://www.david-sadler.org/archiveFP/FP20030910.htm
"Excerpts from 9/11 Commission Testimony, May 23, 2003
NORAD Major General Larry Arnold’s testimony and verbal exchanges with Vice Chairman Lee Hamilton of the 9/11 Commission.
Page 47-48 of the official 9/11 Commission PDF file transcript
MR. HAMILTON:
And then, finally, as I understand your testimony, it was not possible to shoot down any of these aircraft before they struck. Is that basically correct?
GEN. ARNOLD: That is correct. In fact, the American Airlines 77, if we were to have arrived overhead at that particular point, I don't think that we would have shot that aircraft down.
MR. HAMILTON: Because?
GEN. ARNOLD: Well, we had not been given authority "
Peace
Karl
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 12, 2007 - 01:09am PT
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Where in that video does he indicate that he did not think the order was a shoot-down order?
The standard policy may have been not to shoot down without orders, but the video shows that both Hamilton and Mineta agree that Bush gave the order that day to shoot down any commercial aircraft that are believed to be hijacked.
Mineta says he was not aware of the order when it was given, but he was made aware of it when the plane approached the Pentagon.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2007 - 01:21am PT
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Listen to Mineta's interview in Seattle. He claims not to know about a shoot down order and in the testimony I link above, the General said they didn't have shoot-down authority.
If there was a shoot down order, where's that document? How come Mineta's testimony is missing from the Archive and Report?
This isn't a dead horse as long as there are lies standing in the place of valid questions. We went to war over this stuff. Don't like the thread. Don't bump it.
Peace
karl
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 12, 2007 - 01:25am PT
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So you think Hamilton and Mineta are lying about the shoot-down order or have they just been fooled?
I'll look around for evidence of the shoot down order but need to get back to work.
I don't read Alex Jones websites. Call it a fault, so be it.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Dec 12, 2007 - 01:29am PT
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Paranoids should be waterboarded to give them something to be paranoid about.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2007 - 02:31am PT
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If you watch Mineta's full testimony, He specifically disclaims having direct knowledge of a shoot down order. Hamilton is a white-washer and assumes a shoot-down order without evidence.
I'd like to limit this thread to people and money issues. We've already discussed the buildings falling down in much detail.
Here's a link with more pointers to the fact that the US had plenty of warning of the attacks and officials lied like dogs when they claimed they never dreamed that terrorists would use planes to attack the us.
from
http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq36.html
"In January 2001, Atta was permitted reentry into the United States after a trip to Germany, despite being in violation of his visa status. He had landed in Miami on 10th January on a flight from Madrid on a tourist visa—yet he had told immigration inspectors that he was taking flying lessons in the U.S., for which an M-1 student visa is strictly required. Jeanne Butterfield, Executive Director of the American Immigration Lawyers Association, points out that: “Nine times out of 10, they would have told him to go back and file [for that status] overseas. You’re not supposed to come in as a visitor for pleasure and go to work or school.”[42]
PBS’ Frontlines also takes note of “The failure of the INS to stop the attack’s ringleader, Mohamed Atta, from entering the U.S. three times on a tourist visa in 2001, even though officials knew the visa had expired in 2000 and Atta had violated its terms by taking flight lessons.”[43]
This failure should be evaluated in context with the fact that Atta had been under FBI surveillance for stockpiling bomb-making materials. Furthermore, Canadian TV reported that Atta had already been implicated in a terrorist bombing in Israel, with the information passed on to the United States before he was first issued his tourist visa.[44]
Yet despite these blatant terrorist connections, Atta was still allowed into the United States freely, and made repeated trips to Europe, each time returning to the U.S., and being admitted by U.S. customs and immigration without obstruction—not because visa regulations were lax, but because they were willfully violated. The London Observer notes in surprise that Atta:
“… was under surveillance between January and May last year after he was reportedly observed buying large quantities of chemicals in Frankfurt, apparently for the production of explosives and for biological warfare… The U.S. agents reported to have trailed Atta are said to have failed to inform the German authorities about their investigation. The disclosure that Atta was being trailed by police long before 11 September raises the question why the attacks could not have been prevented with the man’s arrest.”[45]
Atta also appears to have been under continual surveillance by the FBI. He was among the suspected terrorists linked to bin Laden training at U.S. flight schools, which the FBI had already known about for years. As the BBC observed: “The evidence... reinforces concerns that the international intelligence community may have known more about Atta before September 11 than was previously thought, but had failed to act.”[46]" and
"Knight Ridder news service provided more specific details of the findings. Mohamed Atta had attended International Officers School at Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery, Alabama; Abdulaziz Alomari had attended Aerospace Medical School at Brooks Air Force base in Texas; and Saeed Alghamdi had been to the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California."
"In another interview with CBC’s Radio One, he stated that according to confirmation he received from U.S. government officials, the “CIA was recruiting terrorists to fight against the then Soviets.” Osama bin Laden, moreover, “was their asset, and was working with them.” There were “as many as a hundred” recruits, people “with no ties to any place in particular… Afghanistan was the end user of their facilities. They were coming to the U.S. for training as terrorists. The countries that had supplied them did not want them back.” Springmann testified that CIA officials had consistently violated State Department regulations to issue visas to these people.
“CBC: Does this demonstrate a relationship between the CIA and Osama Bin Laden dating back as far as 1987?
“SPRINGMANN: That’s right, and as you recall, they believe that this fellow Sheikh Abdurrahman who was tied to the first New York World Trade Center bombing had gotten his visa from a CIA case officer in the Sudan. And that the 15 or so people who came from Saudi Arabia to participate in the attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon had gotten visas through the American consulate general in Jeddah.
“CBC: So what does that suggest, that this pipeline was never rolled up, that it’s still operating?
“SPRINGMANN: Exactly. I thought that it had been, because I’d raised sufficient hell that I thought that they’d done it. I had complained to the Embassy in Riyadh, I had complained to diplomatic security in Washington, I had complained to the General Accounting Office, I had complained to the State Department Inspector-General’s Office, I had complained to the Bureau of Consular Affairs at the State Department and apparently the reverberations from this were heard all over the State Department.
“CBC: If what you say may be true, many of the terrorists who allegedly flew those planes into those targets, got their U.S. visas through the CIA and your U.S. consulate in Jeddah. That suggests a relationship ongoing as recently as obviously September. But what was the CIA presumably recruiting these people for as recently as September 11th?
“SPRINGMANN: That I don’t know. And that’s one of the things that I tried to find out through a series of Freedom of Information Act requests starting ten years ago. At the time the State Department and the CIA stonewalled my requests. They’re still doing so."
From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories
"On the morning of 9/11, 50 minutes before Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon, the National Reconnaissance Office, who are responsible for operating US reconnaissance satellites, had scheduled an exercise simulating the crashing of an aircraft into their building, four miles from Dulles airport.[30]"
Let's add to all this that Bush claimed to have seen the plane crash into the first tower on TV before he went in to read "Pet Goat" to the classroom. He said he thought "that was a terrible pilot" thining it was an accident. No such footage had been broadcast. How could he mistake such a thing?
I don't know what happened on 9-11. The only accusation I'm making is that we aren't getting the whole story and that we've been lied to and stonewalled and we don't know why
one more tidbit
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/CNN_investigates_secret_911_doomsday_plane_0913.html
Shortly before 10 am on the morning of September 11, 2001, amid rumors of a fourth hijacked plane headed for Washington, DC, a mystery aircraft appeared in restricted airspace over the White House. There has never been an official explanation for this incident, which has provided abundant fuel for 9/11 conspiracy theories.
CNN has now learned from two government sources that the mystery plane was a military aircraft and has determined that the blurry image on video appears to match photos of the Air Force's E-4B (discussed here on Wikipedia), a specially modified Boeing 747 with a communications pod behind the cockpit.
"The E-4B is a state of the art flying command post," CNN explained, "built and equipped for one reason -- to keep the government running no matter what, even in the event of a nuclear war, the reason it was nicknamed the 'doomsday plane' during the Cold War."
9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton told CNN he was aware of the incident and that it had simply never seemed important enough to make it into the commission's report. He called conspiracy theories involving government complicity in 9/11 "ludicrous."
The plane was previously identified as the E-4B a year ago by one researcher on a forum associated with the 9/11 conspiracy film, Loose Change.
CNN acknowledges that, despite its identification, the absence of the aircraft from official investigations, together with the Pentagon's denial that it was a military plane and the insistence by the Pentagon, Secret Service, and FAA that they have no explanation for the incident, may continue to raise suspicions.
==
9-11 was a big deal. Too much government secrecy remains about something that happened years ago
Peace
Karl
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 12, 2007 - 02:32am PT
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Loose Change should be renamed Loose Screws. Don't forget to put on a tinfoil hat while you watch it.
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JerryGarcia
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe
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Dec 12, 2007 - 09:51am PT
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BUMP for great justice
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Dec 12, 2007 - 11:35am PT
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Loose Change should be renamed Loose Screws. Don't forget to put on a tinfoil hat while you watch it.
So easy to say 9-11 conspiracy films and folks are nuts.
But, there's a lot of very obvious unanswered questions.
It'd be so easy to join the mainstream and say that folks
who believe the 9-11 conspiracies are total crackpots, if
some of these very straightforward questions were answered.
But instead of answering the questions, smokescreens are put
in place. Certainly makes me wonder. Why the smokescreens?
While we're on the subject of films, you gotta watch:
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
Thanks Karl for the nice list of links...
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Dec 12, 2007 - 11:43am PT
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"unanswered questions" are not the same thing as answers.
Don't ever forget that.
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monolith
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 12, 2007 - 11:49am PT
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There certainly are unanswered questions about 9/11 as there are in any chaotic event, but that does not mean you get to change shoot-down to stand-down.
The order was clearly a shoot-down order:
http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/staff_statement_17.pdf
Floor Leadership: You need to read this...The Region Commander has declared
that we can shoot down aircraft that do not respond to our direction. Copy that?
Controllers: Copy that, sir.
Floor Leadership: So if you’re trying to divert somebody and he won’t divert—
Controllers: DO [Director of Operations] is saying no.
Floor Leadership: No? It came over the chat… You got a conflict on that direction?
Controllers: Right now no, but—
Floor Leadership: Okay? Okay, you read that from the Vice President, right? Vice President has cleared. Vice President has cleared us to intercept traffic and shoot them down if they do not respond per CONR CC [General Arnold].
Now this was all too late of course, but no fighter turned around, and certainly no stand-down order was issued.
It's all moot, since no fighter was even in range to do a shoot-down. These are the problems that should be focused on.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Dec 12, 2007 - 12:00pm PT
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To all of you who think that the "9-11 commision" is right on the money with the facts:
Are you safe and secure knowing that the great US military can't even defend its headquarters on American soil ?
Especially when it knows of 4 hijacked planes on the same day within 2 hours of each other.
I'll stick with the CTers--at least they are in touch with reality.
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 12, 2007 - 12:03pm PT
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You guys have way too much faith in the competency of government officials, especially these government officials, to be able to persuade rank-in-file civil servants to conduct/overlook the biggest mass murder in US history then remain silent about it.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Dec 12, 2007 - 12:06pm PT
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Once a bureaucracy is confused, ANYTHING can be kept a secret--as long as they keep getting a paycheck, all is normal.
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 12, 2007 - 12:08pm PT
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You guys watch too much X-files.
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