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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Let's encourage Crowley to delete ALL his posts.
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Come on you're like a bunch of fck^&* dogs...
I don't have all night (day) so I'll make this short,
I was going to say that Crowley, whether you liked it or not put something up there and didn't add (his 2 cents) worth of stuff that people hate.
Then it started all over again, and I just wanted it to flow...you know. Not digress into the shite that has been happening.
I think Crowley need not respond to Shite nor Locker ( nor Dr T) to Shite, but just have a "discussion about the topic...is that too much to ask (expect...!) I think everyone has something worth saying (writing) but ya got to give it a chance and to ("attack") respond to the ideas, not the person...
Maybe I'm dreamng...
DD
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screelover
Mountain climber
Canuckistan
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LEB,
While I admire your principles related to self-inprovement, I think you are also being a bit nieve when it comes to realities of the work place.
Management tends to get the type of union it deserves. Abusive, and represive employers tend to spawn unions that are agressive and confrontational. Management that truly values employees tends to provide barren ground for union organizers.
You reap what you sew.
You preference that any worker who feels hard done by should simply "pull themselves up by the socks", while commendable, ignores the reality that most exploited workers find themselves in.
Should exploited farm workers all become farmers? Should postal workers start courier companies? Should underpaid and overworker nurses found new hospitals? Extending your arguement leads to absurdity.
As a self-employed person, i haven't got a dog in this fight, but I do know that unions can become self-perpetuating and corrupt, just like any other human insititution. And then they need to be overthrown by the members they exploit.
There is no black and white here, I'm afriad, just endless shades of gray.
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screelover
Mountain climber
Canuckistan
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The other thing that can really make a difference for those in the hospitality industry is demographics.
My son is a chef in Western Canada. As you may be aware, there is a bit of an economic boom going on out there, and, given the aging population and soaring demand for workers, there is a real shortage of people willing to take on the normally poorly-paid jobs in resorts and restaurants.
high demand + lower supply = higher prices.
So in Canmore, high school students working part-time for Tim Horton's (our national donut chain) start at about $15/hr plus benefits.
The high end restuaant my son works at offered all employees at 30% raise at the beginning of the year. That was their opening offer.
Needless to say, many of the trades pay way good these days. It's hard work, but carpenters, plumbers, welders, etc. make well in excess of $100k/year in Alberta.
Sometimes the market works for workers too.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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"Granted that there have been abusive employers throughout history, and unions have made some very positive impacts, in the twenty-first century they have outlived their usefulness in industrialized nations."
I'd guess that the workers in most Tyson's factories, and indeed many in "right to work" states, might not agree. The underlying issue - our dependence on low skill, low education, low wage workers - is profound, given demographic change.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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union guys take on management and get the toxins in a workplace taken care of - union good...
union guys sitting around and can't get fired because they are union - union bad...
seen both with these two eyes...
absolutes ? NO...
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Thread drift time:
From 1895-1920 the second largest city in the US ,West of the Continental Divide(Butte) was dominated by two entwined opponents--copper and labor. The Socialist Party held control of the city government and copper was needed for the growth of electricity. "No Smoking" signs were printed in 17 different languages to accomodate the safety of the miners. There were labor problems, prostitution, enormous wealth--all under the Socialist Party rule.
Moral of the story ?
I don't know, but that's why it's a thread drift.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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LEB, What will happen when everyone is a chef?
"We want a system in which the worker shall get what he produces and the capitalist shall produce what he gets." - Eugene Debs
Fair enough?
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stinky
climber
Santa Cruz. CA
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because one person won the lottery, we should buy lottery tickets instead of saving for retirement.
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WBraun
climber
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"The man who wins the lottery does so by pure and simple chance."
Not so, not ever. It's pre-ordained.
Nothing in this universe operates on chance.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dingus wrote: everyone can do something to make himself more self-reliant and less dependant on others to protect him.
Exactly. It's called the power of the union.
As Woody Guthrie said:
I’m gonna tell you fascists
You may be surprised
The people in this world
Are getting organized
You’re bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose
Race hatred cannot stop us
This one thing we know
Your poll tax and Jim Crow
And greed has got to go
You’re bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose.
All of you fascists bound to lose:
I said, all of you fascists bound to lose:
Yes sir, all of you fascists bound to lose:
You’re bound to lose! You fascists:
Bound to lose!
People of every color
Marching side to side
Marching ‘cross these fields
Where a million fascists dies
You’re bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose!
I’m going into this battle
And take my union gun
We’ll end this world of slavery
Before this battle’s won
You’re bound to lose
You fascists bound to lose!
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WBraun
climber
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And you wonder why he goes off at times, (Crowley).
You're a dipshit Taco.
You're the fuking stalker ........
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Dr. Taco
Social climber
New Freedonia, Caledonia
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Ok, Mr. Braun, I'll bite. Dr. Taco will stay in character to slap away at your slow pitch.
When I say yer killin' me, I mean, your KILLING me because, well shoot - isn't is a maxim of Werner's Theory of the Universe that all is preordained? I therefore have no say in the matter, and must slag Crowley.
That, or I'm guessing Crowley doesn't send you hate mail? I mean, from before he hated or knew Dr. Taco.
Deleted the offending post, this one's next most likely.
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Dr. Taco
Social climber
New Freedonia, Caledonia
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POS scumbag troll from Palookaville.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!
(POS/Piece of Shit)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
- A. Crowley
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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LEB: The union does not want YOU to advance in any meaningful way and reach your full potential whatever that is.
That's just false. You see, Lois/Dingus, I am the Union.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Lois: And if you decide to open your own business or get more education in your chosen field or go above and beyond where you are now, then you are no longer "the union." They won't celebrate with you. They won't be glad for you.
Where did you learn these lies? That's a bunch of bushwah hogwash! You've been beaten down by the Man, Lois. Break your chains!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Unions are not a thing of the past, if we ever needed 'em we need 'em now.
Check out Walmart and China.
Unions, for the good of everybody, join one today, I did, more than once.
As for Crowley and his alleged post deleting; Though I like the man in person, and I'm pretty much with him politically, I'm not always down with his posting style. So I pretty much never read the threads he starts, and have missed this phenomenna. Just a suggestion to those of you who don't agree with him, if you get my drift. He isn't exactly holding a gun to your heads to follow his whim, or his he?
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John Moosie
climber
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I keep optimistically and Pollyanna-like thinking that one day I (we) can "reach" LOIS so as to help her see the light .
oops, the above might be a plagiarism from you Lois, but I changed 2 words.
Dirt wrote this on the Right wing ideology thread. Why Lois had to start another thread when she had already posted on that thread I do not know. Except she is Lois.
Here is Dirts post.
.......................................
Lois, you're thinking like an idiot.
Professionals need unions, they just have not realized it yet.
Medical professionals are among the most in need, in fact. You know the term "doc in a box"?
Do you know how these days the HMOs and other insurers push docs around all the time?
FYI, if dish washer caliber intellects could be chefs, do you really think they'd be washing dishes?
To a business, paying as little as the market will bear suits them just fine, and htey will almost always do just that, regardless of how miserable ther employees will be. This in fact one one fastor that led to the great depression. IF you don't believe that maybe you should read somethign besides Rush books and other right wing propaganda.
When government finally gets done with thier plan to let business and industry operate the way they did in the 20's and thirties, we'll have ANOTHER great depression, only this time people will not be so nice about things.
IN case you are wondering, wages were largely so low and working conditions so bad that people could not afford to buy the goods they produced. That's why they struck (illegal in those days), and that's partly why Roosevelt had to fight the supreme court to get things changed. The supremes were mostly ultra right wing conservative at hte beginning of RDF's first term, and they backed business over the people. They even declared some reforms illegal at first.
You can read all about this in plenty of books about the era, and you'd think anyone who knew a little histsory woudl be aghast at the current trends.
But you,YOU are just the sort of bushbot the republicans love.
America today faces the creation of a permanent underclass, for varioius reasons, which happened over a long period of time. But the bush admin in particular is helping hand over fist.
What unions did was to make possible the great american middle class. The laws they fought for protected us all in some ways.
The most corrupt administration since the teapot dome gang has done a great job of gutting our liberty and our pusuit of happiness, almost entirely in the name their two geart ideals-- of helping out their rich buddies, and creating a totalitarian state where there used to be a free one.
...........................................................
Excellant post. So far Lois, you have said no one needs unions. Then you said, okay, the old, the sick, the mentally retarded need unions.
How about just average folks who have to work in a monopolized industry like working in the parks concessions? The owner here is a billionaire. I suppose joe blow making 8 dollars an hour could fight him. hahahha....
The owners have more power therefore to give power to the little person, unions were formed. Are they perfect? NO. But then neither are the owners. Let me know when you work that part of the equation out, PERFECT NON GREEDY OWNERS, and I will help you dismantle the unions. Until then, good night.
Moosiethefoolwhocaresaboutthelittlepeoplemorethentherich
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