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TheHip
Trad climber
Squamish, BC
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 3, 2004 - 09:32pm PT
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Somewhere on the Pakistan border, bin Laden is sitting in a cave smiling. Four more years of Bush plays directly in his hands since the 'war of terror' will undoubtedly expand into Iran and Syria.
bin Laden may be a 'little raghead' (Hi Flash) but he isn't stupid. Through terrorism he is attempting to bleed the US economy dry by waging a costly war of economic attrition.
The invasion of Iraq is one of the worst things Bush could have done to stop terrorism. Hussein was obviously not supporting Al Qaeda, if anything the fundamentalists were suppressed under him. Now, look at it! How many moderate Muslims have been pushed towards extremism by Bush's policies?
I've had the good fortune of travelling to many Muslim countries and without exception, the people are among the most welcoming and generous I have ever met. However, blind support for Israel and the invasion of Iraq has alienated over a billion of them.
Does the USA really want and endless war with 20% of the planet? I guess so.
And the US economy? US-based multinationals can kiss their profits goodbye...there is a small but quickly growing movement to boycott all US products.
Enjoy your (growing) deficit and shrinking economy!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Get with it, Osama Bin laden IS Bush!
(figuritivly, of course)
"Does the USA really want and endless war with 20% of the planet? I guess so."
-of course we do, haven't you read 1984? Where else are we going to get the money?
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handjamdrum
Trad climber
Madison, WI
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As an American, a Wisconite, and one who lives in this liberal enclave called Madison, I couldn't agree with you more...
Kerry and Bush really don't differ that much as individuals.
Their differences lie in the people that surround them. The powers behind Bush realized a long time ago that belief/faith trumps fact/logic.
As this is the case, those of us represented by the 48% minority of voters (55MM+) are left to engage the most base, local level of engagement in government if we want real change -if we desire to pull back the surge to the right.
Otherwise, if those of us who rage and battle against this tide do nothing, our words are left to nothing but the wind.
Might as well keep climbing...i suppose it's up to us.
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TheHip
Trad climber
Squamish, BC
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2004 - 01:14pm PT
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I'm not sure why liberal is such a bad word in the US??
From 01-04 most of the rest of the world understood that Bush stole the election and that the administration wasn't truly representative of the American majority. Now that Bush has won the popular vote we are just left shaking our heads.
Unfortunately for US liberals, the rest of the world now sees Mountain Man and/or Flash as a typical AMerican. How scary is that? I feel sorry for any Americans travelling abroad who now have to deal with that.
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dufas
Trad climber
san francisco
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i woke up on Wednesday sure that I don't live in the same country as the south or the midwest. they don't share my values, my direction, my goals. Of course we're stuck with the label now, and like the front page of the Daily Mirror said, "How Can 59,000,000 People Be So DUMB!"
Bush cut my taxes, quite a bit. Kerry was going to raise them. I live a comfortable life in a nice house in a very expensive town in the Silicon Valley. To tell you the truth, I'm glad that I now know that trailer trash in the rest of the country doesn't want my money. Great, that means I can support the causes I want to and act on a local level even more with my tax savings.
We may even have a uber-popular governator who seems to actually be able to mix fiscal conservative, pro-business, socially moderate and pro-environmental policies in a rational way. Maybe it's not all that bad. And Bush wants to let the governors establish and maintain roadless areas as wilderness, maybe, in California, that's not too bad either.
The rest of the country, except New England and parts of the midwest can just go fester in their evangelism. Just leave us alone and don't change the constitution.
Here's hoping that Jody/Flash, Mountain Man, Fattrad (although he showed moments of lucidity), Nohea and their ilk go find a state that thinks like they do.
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dufas
Trad climber
san francisco
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what same page are we on? I'm confused.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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fattrad, I hardly think Bin Laden could be considered a "great warrior." He convinced a bunch of people to fly planes into building, killing 3000 innocent people. "great butcher," maybe?
And Bush would be better termed "idiot warrior." He has access to ostensibly the most powerful military in the world and can't even send enough troops in to handle a war in a country that had previously been decimated by a decade of sanctions.
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dufas
Trad climber
san francisco
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gotcha fattrad. We could do a lot worse than Arnold. W, for instance.
MM, you don't want respect, you want fear. Unfortunately, the scared ones are in this country. Pretty ironic. You don't get respect by beating it out of someone, you get it by understanding and appealing to their values and goals and working for understanding. And don't pull the al-Queda is Islam analogy as a response because that is/was not true in 2001.
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dufas
Trad climber
san francisco
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"But then we always have people like that in every war. Living in luxury, enjoying the benefits of freedom, but condemning those who keep them free. Pathetic."
MM: That's a really nice sound bite. But your logic is not linear and I think that you live in a comic book world.
We enjoy the benefits of luxury due to a mercantile system in which the US enjoys enormous commercial leverage, but which has nothing to do with "freedom". "Freedom" as defined by Americans for 230 years is due to a constitution with checks and balances and the protections from the tyranny of an out of control executive branch inherent in it. It has nothing to do with military intervention. I don't think that Osama can change the constitution, no matter how many times he bombs us. Perhaps military intervention has something to do with protection from being bombed, but that's all I'll grant you.
You also make a point about how those who kill americans deserve to be creamed. Does this apply to polluters who put arsenic and mercury in my child's water supply?
A prediction: Based on his 51% mandate, Bush will waltz arrogantly into Congress and make such obnoxious demands that he will piss off every Dem and some Republicans and end up accomplishing very little. This I think may be a good thing.
Thanks, I'm very fond of my name.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Hey Mountain Man, can you hook me up with whoever you get your hooch from? Cause I'm kinda low right now, and it looks like from your sophmoric endzone posting antics, that chu got da shite.
Help a bro out
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C-DUB
Trad climber
Laguna Beach Ca
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For a hot stock try Halliburton.
laterzz, seer-Dub
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Flash
Ice climber
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Hey liberals...
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Lets see, Flush, Judy, MinnieMe and Fatguy all are pro pre-emtive war type of red blooded Mericans, but never served. They really love having someone else go shed some blood for them. This must be the dawning of the age of the chickenhawk. Have fun boys. I'm sure your armchairs must be getting friction buns by now.
It's like a four person circle jerk and they're all fighing for the pivot position. LOL
keep goin guys, you're on a roll
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Nice photo flash, but taken out of context. It is directed at americans in general, not just us liberals.
Jay
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dufas
Trad climber
san francisco
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fattrad, as I have no military service, I'm curious if any of the following would qualify for not being a lazy stock option craving ass: spending thanksgiving and other holidays serving food to the homeless, building and renovating homes for low income residents, pro-bono legal work for indigents, contributions in time and money to non-profit outreach, environmental and human rights organizations, time spent on trail building and local cleanups of beach and parkland, volunteering at the YMCA, contributions of costly items to charity auctions?
I'm not tooting my horn as I can surely do more, but any of those count or just military and law enforcement?
I get the feeling from the ass-kicking republican crowd that if one hasn't shot at an "enemy", one is not worthy of participating in a discussion. Ya see, I put my money where my mouth is and probably pay more in taxes than the combined income of 5 of the average climbers on this forum. So why don't I deserve to make my opinion of where that money is spent known? And if I don't agree with you, that makes me "pathetic" in the feeble words of MM?
The heavy focus on military service is myopic and silly.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Well fatdude, I was a high school teacher for four years (now that's giving..lol), I did my four year enlistment in the Army. I just worked the polls on Tuesday. Does any of that count?
Also, I have never really felt threatened by the LA gangs. Why? Becuae I don't hang out in those parts of town you patroled. And that's why so many tools get this super reactionary mindset of absolute black and white, us against them, force against force. I works well for tools for sure given the job demands you dudes have. But it also leads to super high divorce, suicide, alcoholism rates among those who do it for very long. When you wade in as much sh#t as tools do, it's a mental by-product of the world you see. Unfortunately most of you dudes can't make some kind of mental shift when you're not around low life thugs.
Also, yeah you protect and serve, but there are also lots of loose cannons in uniform. but you know it's job you can walk away from any time you feel like it. When you're in the military you don't have that luxury and many times have to follow orders from total dumbshits who have your life in their hands. Only in your gig you can say no, but in the military you get thrown in jail. Big difference there homes...and no matter how hard you want to equate the street gangs of LA with open combat like our troops are dealing with, you can't bridge the logic gap.
Too bad you didn't step up when you had the physical abilities. But now...you might have had to go to someplace the I Corps in Nam and get your ass shot off. That is if you were old enough back then.
cheers
been climbing lately>
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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You know, I generally agree with you regarding service to the community, whether it be national or local, I don't think anyone would argue with that, but the issue I have is with those who are the Fireeaters/Abolionists of our time. Those who are the loudest when it comes to promoting PaxAmericana ideology. Yet they found other things to do that choice presented itself to them. The hyproscricy of that really pisses me off. Because you will never know what if feels like to have some dumbsh#t, butterbar looey tell you to do something you know is gonna get you hurt and you have to do it.
The preemtive doctrine of the Bush administration leads us down a road of heavy military actions and that equates into many, many (very wrong and imoral IMO) American deaths. Do not get me wrong, I have zero objections about using our military, but the reasons and rationale have to be worthy and true. Iraq is neither. Afganistan was both
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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fatrad, I would only have US troops go in there if they were part of a much larger regional/UN force. Somewhere, sometime the UN needs to act according to the ideals on which it was founded. But unfortunately with the current mess that passes as the UN, I would be against going in there.
Yes it's a travesty of justice and a huge pool of misery there, but you can find probably twenty places on the globe today that mirror many of the conditions in the sub-saharan region. Look over on the West side and it's the Sierra Leone, Liberia sh#t going down. It's different yet similar in the misery levels people are being subjected to.
What you're promoting is the U.S. as the worlds police force and I just don't think that is in our national interest to play that role. I don't know if there are any easy answers to the question of when and how we should send our troops into areas for the sole purpose of humanitarian aid at the barrel of a M1A1 Abrams.
The population bomb is going off and it's all a mad scramble for access to resoures or the vetting of blood/tribal/racial fueds. There's a lot of misery out there. Is it our job to fix it?
I don't think so.
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