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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 30, 2007 - 12:35pm PT
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Well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist or an epidemiologist to realize that if you don't strictly enforce your borders and screen legal immigrants health, you're going to have health epidemics that have either been wiped out or never existed in the first place.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070830/D8RBARF80.html
Now, Bush the fool and all the one-worlders in Congress are going to allow South American trucks to travel into our country with realtive ease. The first leagl challenge to this North American Union is coming from, of all places, a large union.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003859913_mextrucks30.html
With the vast majority of Americans opposed to ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, when are our leaders going to do something about it? Only a handful of leaders ever speak publicly about the problems associated with illegal immigration, which are countless. Unfortunately, when they do speak up about it, they're called racist xenophobes...usually by illegal immigrants or groups for illegal immigrant rights. Illegal immigrant rights, what an oxymoron.
And before somebody says the inevitable, there's a vast difference between controlled LEGAL IMMIGRATION and uncontolled ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.
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andanother
climber
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Aug 30, 2007 - 12:51pm PT
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bluering,
I apologize for what my people have done to you and yours. The damage can never be repaid. The epidemics we brought and forced upon you cut your people down to a fraction of their size.
And we did it out of greed.
F*#k, it's embarrassing to be an American, but I think we need to put it behind us and move on.
What tribe are you from?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2007 - 01:16pm PT
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Andy, what we did inadvertantly to native American indians was tragic, I agree. The question however is should we ignore the lesson learned from that, or maybe try to learn from the mistakes made.
Australia had very strict immigration laws targeted directly at Souteastern Asian people because they were accutely aware of the disease potential from them. That's also why they, still to this day, have extemely strict quarantine laws regarding household pets coming into the country. The indigenous Aussie animal population was rabies free, and free from alot of other animal-born disease. That's just a smart policy, nothing else.
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andanother
climber
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Aug 30, 2007 - 01:33pm PT
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I just don't see how we can be blocking/banning people from a country that isn't even ours.
We stole this land by slaughtering countless people. Then, hundreds of thousands of immigrants moved here and started creating rules, and banning other immigrants. Most of the people that we didn't slaughter were killed off by our diseases.
I know there is no way to repair what we have done. And I agree that it makes sense to protect ourselves.
I just think it's kind of ironic that you are complaining about epidemics. That was a key element in making this nation what it is today!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2007 - 02:11pm PT
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Andy, read my original post again. I'm not against legal immigration at all. I'd just like to see it controlled, and illegal immigration stopped.
I'm a 3rd generation Italian/German immigrant myself. My grandfather had to go through health screening before being granted citizenship. Is that asking too much? From what I understand our legal immigration process is pretty thourough in terms of health screening and quarantining. It's the illegal entrants that bypass this system that are a potential health problem, among other problems.
We have recognized our mistakes in the past regarding native Americans too. We have even dedicated land for them to use as they see fit that is subject to their own rules/lifestyles. While it doesn't make up for all of the crimes we're guilty of, it's a pretty nice deal for them.
Oh, do you know what the Mexican government does to people who enter their country illegally from other South American countries?
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thinksforhimself
climber
fresno, ca
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Aug 30, 2007 - 02:20pm PT
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We stole this land
So since the US was the first to land on the moon, does that mean it is one of our states?
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Aug 30, 2007 - 02:24pm PT
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Bluering: The military campaigns against Native Americans, the extermination of bison ("the [plains] Indians' commissary"), and the distribution of clothing contaminated with small pox, among other examples from our history, were deliberate, not inadvertent.
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andanother
climber
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Aug 30, 2007 - 02:32pm PT
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bluering,
I agree with what you're saying. I'm just playing Devils advocate and being a troll (that's kind of my thing).
But I really do find a lot of hypocrisy in creating some sort of policy like that. Yes, it's necessary. But it's still hypocritical, considering our past.
Oh, and Crowleysforhimself, bluering already posted that link.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2007 - 02:51pm PT
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John, I knew it wouldn't be long before the 'immigrants right attorney' showed up. I have alot of doubts that the small-pox distribution was intentional. If it was, why didn't we just exterminate all natives...you know, genocide.
Everyone knows the 'white man' did indeed take advantage of natives, and it was wrong. Natives weren't exactly nice to each other either. I have alot of respect for the symbiotic lifestyle that native Americans had for their environment. The white-man showed up and was another player in the game of Northern American development. Indiands killed each, indians raped and killed white people, white people did the same. It was a savage way of life back then. Just because the white-man became the dominant player and 'won', doesn't mean we have to have this guilt that you seem to have. We brought with us a system of laws and governance that eventually ended the savage ways. And we also learned to live together with native people and give them the respect they deserved.
Everybody deserves a chance to live in this country, they just need to do it in a legal and respectful manner, free of any contageous disease. Hell, we even cure the diseases in some cases, and then let them assimilate in the the population.
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Irisharehere
Trad climber
Gunks
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Aug 30, 2007 - 02:54pm PT
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Unless you'd propose quarentining everyone trying to enter the US for a holiday, business, whatever, you can't cut off potential "foreign" diseases. The world is a lot more integrated than it used to be, with all the opportunities and disadvantages that entails.......
Quite honestly, Id say the money that would have to be spent to screen everyone trying to enter the country would be better spent beefing up public healthcare and epidemiology programs.
And this is coming from a microbiologist who just got his Green Card!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2007 - 02:54pm PT
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Andy, it's only hipocritical it we're still engaging in those policies. If you learn from mistakes and change your stance it's not hipocracy, just learning.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2007 - 02:58pm PT
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Irish, that's a damn good point. But there are certain places where communicable diseases are rampant, I'm sure you know this. It would be irresponsible to allow free, unfettered access to/from those areas. That's why you need to get typhoid, malaria, gamma-globulin, and certain other innoculations when travelling to certain countries. Not just so that you don't catch the disease, but also so you don't bring it back with you in your infected body.
Edit; Welcome to America too!
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Aug 30, 2007 - 03:06pm PT
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The old "we stole this land" song and dance is getting old and tired. It's such a f*#king cop out. We could easily point to any country in the world and say they "stole" it, so they have no right to do anything to make it a safe place, efficient, etc... When it comes down to it, it's just another way to avoid and not do anything about a real, and growing, problem.
It's about as pointless as this conversation will prove to be.
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Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
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Aug 30, 2007 - 03:14pm PT
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>>Unless you'd propose quarentining everyone trying to enter the US for a
>>holiday, business, whatever, you can't cut off potential "foreign" diseases.
How's about we make a reasonable effort to greatly reduce our exposure to foreign disease.
Who would say: "We can't 100% be sure to prevent it, so lets not try" ?
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Irisharehere
Trad climber
Gunks
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Aug 30, 2007 - 03:33pm PT
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Nothing wrong with trying to reduce the spread of disease. Quarentine can be an effective tool for this. But if you decide its a tool you want to use, why not use it at the state/city level as well?
New York has a lot more TB than other areas of the country, for instance.........
I think that once you start to designate people from specific geographical areas as high-risk (absent an active disease outbreak in that area), you're opening a whole can of worms. What do you do about US nationals traveling to such areas for instance? Quarentine them upon their return?
On one level, proposals like this are nothing but basic, common sense public health measures. Outbreak of highly infectous XYZ in country A - I don't think many people would have an issue with screening, travel restrictions etc.
It's a problematic issue though - how do you decide which diseases are bad enough to put measures like that in place? What kind of incidence is the trigger level? A lot of questions that are open to abuse by those with various axes to grind.....
Bart - its the definaition of "reasonable effort" that is the crux of the problem. As can be seen from this board, everyones idea of reasonable differs. Scientists, politicians, members of the public would all likely differ on "reasonable effort". And would it apply to US citizens too? Case in point, the guy who flew back from Italy a few months ago with a highly drug-resistant strain of TB...... should he have been locked up? What about someone with a milder strain?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Aug 30, 2007 - 03:50pm PT
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"What do you do about US nationals traveling to such areas for instance?"
Not a traveler, eh?
Ummm.... well, for one, you have to get vaccinated before going to areas known to have a high concentration of something. For instance, before going to Thailand, I had to have all kinds of vaccinations. The critical one being TB. TB is rampant in Southeast Asia.
Ironically, at the time, there were only a couple of places in Fresno that could do the vaccination and test. One was the Health Dept. They told me, "DO NOT COME HERE!!! Most of the Southeast Asians in the lobby/waiting room have it and there is a high probability that you will get it if you come here." They also told me that somehting along the lines of 90% of the Southeast Asians have it. So are we being prejudiced to quarantine/vaccinate certain groups for certain things? Or are we just being smart?
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Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
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Aug 30, 2007 - 03:57pm PT
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what if foreign countries don't want US citizens to travel there, for fear that all their kids will all of a sudden become obese?
(btw- your "fear" is about that valid, and smacks of pat buchanan warning us all on fauxnews that the illegal mexicans are bringing back leprosy, what you ought to be really afraid of is having nobody in the us who is willing to pick your fruits and veggies, biatch!)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2007 - 04:05pm PT
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Matt, so veggies laden with disease is better than more expensive veggies?
There will never be a veggie/fruit shortage, maybe just more expensive. Sounds like you're using the scare tactics now, not Buchanon. And weren't the leprosy, flesh-eating disease, hepatitus, and TB outbraks all very real non-native diseases?
Edit: leprosy link for Matt
http://jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/2005-03-15/whitford-americanleprosy/
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Aug 30, 2007 - 04:19pm PT
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damm ..
I never cease to be amazed by the bigotry in the U.S. Look into yourself, get some counseling and learn to live with the folks around you.
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