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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 27, 2007 - 05:57pm PT
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19984732/
talk to me...shot three times in the head from 10 yards away - murder ?
Nice cover up too.
Cowards and Liars. Our men and women on the line deserve more.
Much More.
-Tom (and hell yeah I'm angry.)
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jul 27, 2007 - 06:02pm PT
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The part where no other americans or their equipment where hit is particularly disturbing. There was only friendly fire? WTF?
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2007 - 06:14pm PT
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"Army attorneys sent each other congratulatory e-mails for keeping criminal investigators at bay as the Army conducted an internal friendly-fire investigation that resulted in administrative, or non-criminal, punishments."
...
"The documents show that a doctor who autopsied Tillman’s body was suspicious of the three gunshot wounds to the forehead. The doctor said he took the unusual step of calling the Army’s Human Resources Command and was rebuffed. He then asked an official at the Army’s Criminal Investigation Division if the CID would consider opening a criminal case.
“He said he talked to his higher headquarters and they had said no,” the doctor testified."
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jul 27, 2007 - 06:33pm PT
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hell no we don't think that. But in most, if not all, other cases there was enemy fire as well. Apparently that was not the case here.
It is true that it gets publicity because he was known/famous. It's a sad story no matter who the person is. It's rather crazy all the way around.
But with any luck it all it's items like this that begin to cause King Georges transparent house of cards to start falling.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2007 - 06:39pm PT
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interesting point khanom - how many other deaths aren't what they are listed as i wonder ?
the biggie with Tillman is that first he was portrayed as a hero for leaving the NFL to fight, then as a martyr when he was killed.
Media opps instead of the f*#king truth...
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 27, 2007 - 06:41pm PT
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66 Canadian soldiers, and one diplomat, have been killed so far in Afghanistan. Five died in friendly fire incidents involving U.S. warplanes, including four in one incident in 2002, in which eight others were wounded. (It was a night-time live-fire exercise.) The pilot was found guilty of dereliction of duty in a "non-judicial hearing", reprimanded, forfeited US$5,000 in pay, and was allowed to remain with the national guard, but not as a pilot.
The pilot made a deal in 2004 to avoid a full court martial, and there were many delays to the case. He and his wingman were originally charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter and eight counts of assault. Those charges were dropped, and replaced by dereliction of duty.
I wonder how thoroughly the incident would have been investigated if hadn't involved soldiers from another country?
Especially given the "fog of war", the military and quasi-military organizations are good at protecting their own. Both the R.C.M.P. and the Vancouver city police are currently being heavily criticized for inadequate or biased investigations of incidents involving their employees.
There are about 2,000 Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan, about 10% of the total NATO force.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/friendlyfire/
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2007 - 06:48pm PT
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comment on this story on digg :
"As far back as March 2003, immediately after the invasion, Tillman famously told his comrade Spc. Russell Baer, "You know, this war is so *&!*&!* illegal," and urged his entire platoon to vote against Bush in the 2004 election. Wesley Clark appeared on Keith Olbermann's Countdown last night and stated that "the orders came from the very top" to murder Tillman as he was a political symbol and his opposition to the war in Iraq would have rallied the population around supporting immediate withdrawal. Google his family's fight for the truth."
How to verify ?
edit - not ignoring you anders - that's horrible as well. but at least that looks like real friendly fire ? this looks like a murder of a man used as a media tool...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 27, 2007 - 07:00pm PT
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Pretty horrifying, but having a powerful military has a heavy cost.
There was a day when it was well worth it, and martial products and services is one of the few things that Americans still do well.
I think Khanom makes the most poignant comment; how many others?
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jul 27, 2007 - 07:02pm PT
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The answer is, without a doubt, too many.
and if true that it was a murder they really did pick the wrong guy.
May the house of cards and lies fall sooner than later.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 27, 2007 - 07:14pm PT
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"Wesley Clark appeared on Keith Olbermann's Countdown last night and stated that "the orders came from the very top" to murder Tillman as he was a political symbol and his opposition to the war in Iraq would have rallied the population around supporting immediate withdrawal. "
Wow! You mean Clinton and Bush's former Security Csar says he was intentionally murdered?! That's wild. When will we finally start investigating these criminals?
Next thing you know, some tin foil hat idiot will try to tell us that Jessica Lynch wasn't really captured while returning heroic fire and that she wasn't rescued in a firefight after being raped by those Iraqi demons!
Sigh
Karl
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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Jul 27, 2007 - 09:15pm PT
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It's sad and stupid but what bugs me is that Tillman gets the accounting he deserves only because he was well known.
the point, that it is within the realm of possibility that he was removed for same. he had the commitment and celebrity to affect public opinion at a very crucial time, and he ends up under a pile of lies with three between the eyes.
i'm sure many have died as a result of 'friendly fire', foriegn or not.
why bury the lead? kh,MH,PR?
Sigh
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jul 29, 2007 - 02:14am PT
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I'm wondering if I might get a little help here. Every news source except one that I've looked at has the headline about Pats death except one. Every news source except on Ive looked at has his death as a possible murder.
Would someone mind helping me figure out what Fox has to say about the whole thing. A search on their site yields nothing. I find this disturbing (thought not surprising). Crowley, c'mon you fuxing bushbot! - what does your news source have to say? What about you Baba? Yew'z gotta be reading nothing but Faux and should know, right?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 29, 2007 - 02:22am PT
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Hooter,
I didn't bury it I said 'how many others?'
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John Moosie
climber
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Jul 29, 2007 - 02:32am PT
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Nature,
Faux news said he died when he single handedly attacked more then 500 Al Queda elite troops who were building 50 nuclear weapons and creating enough sarin gas to kill every American. While destorying these terrorist he also saved 30 orphans and helped build a hospital. Tillman was shot once in the forehead but continued fighting while the orphans escaped. Then he was shot twoce again in the forehead which then killed him.
This has been a faux news update.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 29, 2007 - 02:38am PT
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You forgot to mention that he put out all those afghani oil well fires.
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mdavid
Big Wall climber
CA, CO, TX
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Jul 29, 2007 - 08:57am PT
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Clark was clearly speculating and never stated there was any evidence of his comrades taking him out.
He is also leading a dem pac and has lots of reasons to play these kinds of games. I just can't believe he went this far.
If you guys think his fellow Rangers would take him out over any political pressures you seriously need to get the tin hats out.
These boys end up in all sorts of drama being constantly deployed and while shoot outs with gangsters using machine guns from pits in a front yard is totally within the realm of possible, intentionally murdering a fellow brother on command from higher is just totally outside the programming.
but you can believe what you'd like, wes is just trying to gather more into the dem fold.
Vote Libertarian!!!!!!
http://www.lp.org
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 29, 2007 - 10:37am PT
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mdavid - third post down - quotes from the fine article...
the dr doing the autopsy was suspicious, the army covered it up it would seem...
you do make a valid point that this is possibly being used again by the other side, but i'm not so sure that is all that is going on here. iirc, tillman enlisted to fight the people that attacked us on 9-11 - this would be the taliban in afghanistan, which had nothing to do with iraq. if that last quote I put up is true, it sounds like he was about to start becoming a PR liability for the war, not a poster boy...
and keep in mind these guys are playing the heavy PR game thses days - "From a marketing point of view, you don't introduce new products in August. ..." Andrew Card, the White House chief of staff, told the New York Times when talking about the timing of the war's inception...they treat it like a product they have to sell the people...
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2002/09/12/bush_iraq/index.html
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Jul 29, 2007 - 11:56am PT
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Here's what Wesley Clark (Karl, I think you are thinking of Richard Clarke) said:
"If there's even a hint that there was something like a homicide or a murder in this case, it should've been fully investigated and proved or disproved, and we don't really know how far up- Was it the Secretary of Defense's office? Was it the White House? Where did the idea that you shouldn't give any indication of what happened to Tillman. 'Just go ahead and go through with the burial ceremony. Give him the Silver Star.' Where did that- where was that idea blessed? You can be sure that that idea did not originate or stop at the Two- or Three-Star level. That was- someone approved that all the way to the top, because Pat Tillman was a political symbol used by the administration when it suited their purposes."
Sounds like he's saying the decision to cover-up came from the top, not that it was a White House ordered hit. Not that I would be surprised if it was, but he's not saying that.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jul 29, 2007 - 12:36pm PT
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A tight grouping of three in the head does not sound like an accident to me. It sounds like precise aiming.
Wouldn't it be ironic justice if Tillman became the straw that broke the the Bushies back?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 29, 2007 - 02:35pm PT
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THanks Bill. I was mixed information and digging up the exact quote is helpful. Covering up a murder isn't quite as bad as ordering one.
Peace
Karl
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