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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 20, 2007 - 03:29pm PT
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http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/07/20/executive_privilege/index.html
from the link above-
(worth reading it all, IMO)
"Bush's magical shield from criminal prosecution"
"The Bush administration decided to announce to Washington Post reporters Dan Eggen and Amy Goldstein its view that it has the power to block the Justice Department, and its U.S. Attorneys, from criminally prosecuting Executive Branch employees who refuse to comply with Congressional subpoenas, notwithstanding a statute enacted by the American people through their Congress requiring such prosecution where Congress issues a contempt citation.
...
"Just contemplate what that actually means. One of the primary, defining attributes of a civilized society that lives under the rule of law is prosecutorial independence. Without that, political opponents of those in power can be prosecuted for political rather than legal reasons. And worse still, our most powerful political leaders are free to break the law with impunity because they control the prosecutorial process, which -- in this warped view of our republic -- means that presidents have an absolute power to block criminal prosecution of their subordinates who break the law, provided it was done at the President's behest.
"The administration's theory is an absolute denial of prosecutorial independence. It means that federal prosecutors are nothing more than obedient servants of the President. They are not merely appointed by the President, but their specific decisions about whether to prosecute executive branch officials for criminal acts are controlled and dictated by the President. They are nothing more, as Rifkin said, than "emanations of the president's will."
"It is hard to overstate how threatening that posture is to the defining attribute of a government that lives under the rule of law. ... "
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Jul 20, 2007 - 03:31pm PT
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pinko ;)
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2007 - 03:34pm PT
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I read about that in the Post this morning. Sadly, it's exactly the type of move I've come to expect from this Administration. It's just another attempt by them to avoid oversight.
Why?
What are they hiding?
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2007 - 03:34pm PT
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what are they not hiding! pretty convenient to have your mindless errand boy as USAG when you are going around dropping whoppers like that one...
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 20, 2007 - 03:39pm PT
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You know I think this is all a bit surrealistic, can these clowns in the White House think they can get away with this sh*t..
oh, okay, they are getting away with it, thanks to the toothless chicken sh*t democrats and politicians and the terrorised, poorly informed American sheeple.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2007 - 03:40pm PT
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We'll see how the Dems react. There have been a few (Leahy comes to mind) who have so far been agressive in getting to the bottom of things.
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2007 - 03:54pm PT
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i believe that gonzo has a follow up visit w/ leahey and his committee on wednesday, where his misleading and untruthful testimony at previous hearings will be discussed, maybe this will be another topic(?).
getting that clown out 1st is obviously the most straightforward path to holding bushco accountable for their actions and getting it all on the record.
you really have to wonder what kinds of unique terrorist acts they have planned to distract the sheeple down the home stretch, then i hear they are going on a well deserved, extended vacation to the new bush ranch down in paraguay.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2007 - 04:02pm PT
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Gonzo is awful for so many reasons. Who besides him can make Ashcroft look reasonable?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 20, 2007 - 04:15pm PT
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To0 me, Gonzo == HST
OK, next!
Cheney will be Prez for a few hours while they try to see just how much of an A*Hole W is. I wonder what he'll do with is time. Surely he won't be doing what W has been doing (the VP's duties... ;-).
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 20, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
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"Scary times we live in"
Some people (Matt) scare very easily. What a chicken!
You guys remind me of camping with a bunch of little kids who stay up late telling ghost stories, scaring the hell out of themselves and each other, until they can't sleep because every rustling leaf sounds like the Boogie-Man or the Hook or the Slasher or the escaped murderer from the prison they passed on their way to camp.
Y'all are *scared* of your own immagination.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Jul 20, 2007 - 04:49pm PT
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wow chaz. way to present a technical argument and stick to the topic details...
so you think executive privs *do* extend ? point blank asking you yes or no...
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2007 - 04:59pm PT
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and YOU sir are a donkey-poo farming supporter of criminals.
if you are unconcerned with the prospect of the executive branch of government stealing extraordinary powers that the constitution expressly intended to deny that branch of government, than you are apparently not familiar with the history of our nation and principles under which it was founded.
there is a reason that every elected politician swears, in their oath of office, to uphold the constitution of the united states of america.
if you have an argument to make, then by all means, please base it upon the constitution of the united states of america. because you fail to bother, i fear that you sir are simply not enough of a patriot to recognize when your own political favorite has made a blatantly illegal power grab. in a system of laws where considerable emphasis is placed upon precedent, these are serious issues, no matter where in the political of ideological spectrum you think you are.
i recognize that it takes a certain amount of intellect and a basic understanding of high school level civics to understand these issues, so i perhaps shouldn't hold it against you personally that you seem not to care about your country, but i think you do get it, and you are just too dumb to care.
(it's either that, or you are sitting there thinking, "good, f*#k all those liberal chickenshits, bunch of crybabies...", in which case i again say that you are too dumb to get the point).
EDIT-
WHAT'S MORE, IMO IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO ARE THE COWARDS, PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT THIS PRESIDENT IN ALL HIS HIDEOUS ACTS OF TORTURE AND OTHER NEFARIOUS CRIMES, ALL OF THEM COMMITTED IN OUR NAME AND WITH OUR TAX MONEY- AND WHY IS IT OK WITH YOU PEOPLE? BECAUSE WE WERE ATTACKED ON 9/11, SO YOU GOT FRIGHTENED, AND SO WHATEVER IT TAKES "TO MAKE AMERICA SAFE", ACCORDING TO PEOPLE WHO REGULARLY AND DEMONSTRABLLY LIE TO US, IS OK WITH YOU. CHICKENSH#T CHICKENHAWKS, EVERY ONE OF YOU.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jul 20, 2007 - 05:08pm PT
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There's a big difference between being concerned about what's happening and believing it's "Scary times we live in".
Jesus Matt, what a chickensh#t. I would like to think you're tougher than that.
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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Jul 20, 2007 - 05:09pm PT
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If this trend continues, my prediction is that there will not be a democratic vote in '08,
Bush isn't making it easy for any GOP to include him in their races, who wants to be assc. with him?
and
He just signed some document stating that voting and all that 'democratic' stuff would be temporarily put on hold if the country happened to be under marshal law because of terrorism.
It seems to me that bush has gone from defending democracy to defending his war, and taking apart American democratic perks in order to do so. Checks and balances, easy travel, confidence in the justice system.
Who thinks that it is truly possible to even impeach bush if you had solid grounds to do so? How would you do it? US attorneys? the House? Congress? Who hasn't been told by bush lately that he can do what he wants so bugger off?
My prediction is that during his exam tomorrow they will find what we already know. He is full of... and it is time for a movement. no?
EDIT:
Matt, even 9/11 wouldn't have happened if the NORMAL chain of command and defense plans could have been carried out without Cheney's intervention that day, don't you think? I mean, except for that day, every plane that goes off course is escorted etc. Have Americans really bought into the idea that the proven system of say air escorts was not nearly as affective as banning shampoo and lighters on carry-on luggage?
I feel like no one actually looks at what happened, compares the major systems that were bypassed that day, and compares THAT to the stupid little rules put in place since.Do you feel more comfortable knowing that if your flight goes off course that people are paying attention and jets will guide the pilot back, or that your fellow passengers don't have shampoo?
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2007 - 05:09pm PT
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i suggest it comes down to how much you understand and how much just goes right over your head. our republic is onlt 200+ yrs old, it's no given that our experiment w/ representative democracy will continue successfully, perpetually.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2007 - 05:09pm PT
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Chaz, for someone who presents himself as the biggest government hater of all, I'm surprised you are comfortable with the President circumventing basic oversight.
They're hiding something: do you not care?
These guys do not care about your freedom.
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2007 - 05:13pm PT
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tooth-
the smart money is on lots of good youtube humor in the next couple of weeks, wrt the home video of those explorations...
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JerryGarcia
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe
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Jul 20, 2007 - 05:14pm PT
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Chaz, you suck at conversing your opinion however you are an excellent troll.
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Matt
Trad climber
the land where lois don't roam
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2007 - 05:20pm PT
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chaz-
are you very familiar with the many historical examples of the rise of facism? do you think that the people(s) in those countries were all evil? do you think that the people(s) in those countries were greedy or hateful or otherwise looking to develop such a system of government?
what is your theory of how and why governments transform themselves into facist regimes? what are the common ingredients? what are the warning signs? why ought we not ever bother to consider the possibility that our country might someday move in that direction?
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