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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 19, 2007 - 02:48pm PT
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" The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors ", Hornfischer. This book has been out for awhile, but I just got around to reading it. If you're an enthusiast for WWII history, you're probably familiar with the outline of this battle- Leyte Gulf and the attack of the destroyer escorts and destroyers that saved the beachead in the Battle of Samar. Excellent read and mindboggling story.
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seamus mcshane
climber
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Jul 19, 2007 - 03:36pm PT
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Woody
Thanks for the beta- I'll have to check it out.
If you haven't already (which I doubt), read In Harm's Way, Stanton.
USS Indianapolis (Capt. Quint's scar tale from JAWS) was sunk 62 years ago this month, unbelievable story with firsthand accounts.
This is a remarkable survival epic.
Discovery or Nat. Geo. channel has a "new" account of this story Sunday 7/29/07 9pm et.
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Miwok
climber
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Jul 19, 2007 - 03:41pm PT
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If you get a chance pick up
Antony Beevof Stalingrad.- Hitler really f*#ked Von Paulis at the Volga. Even when the Romanian Front collapsed and central command said "we need to withdraw to save the 6th". Hitler refused to believe it and tried to resupply by air. Best read about Stalingrad and Zukov's comeback through Soviet blood.
Then after that pick up - Guy Sajer's "The Forgotten Soldier" - It's almost a subsequent follow up from Stalingrad. It's about the retreat through the Steps and the bullshit the Gross Duetchland had to endure. it's unbeliveable. Talk about men of steel.
I'm happy the allied forces never had to face the German divisions that fought on the Eastern Front. If the Kursk tank battles was any kind of indication (retreat mode none the less), Patton would've gotten his ass kicked. The Germans had there sh#t together when it came to tank and armored troop movments. Sorry for geeking but I'm a huuuuuge military history buff.
Good thread Woody.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 19, 2007 - 06:45pm PT
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The Battle of Leyte Gulf was the final battle of the Japanese Navy and we kicked their butts, but it wasn't without terrible cost.
One statistic is really haunting:
when one Japanese divebomber got through the defenses of the USS Princeton and hit her avgas supply the ensuing fire eventually claimed the ship, but the Birmingham pulled alongside to assist in fighting the fire and a massive explosion on the Princeton killed 233 of the crew of the Birmingham and severely injured over 400 more!
A lot of people think the big battleship of WWII was the Bismark, but the Japanese had actually begun construction of the Yamato class far bigger, meant to dwarf anything that could come through Panama. They had planned to build seven but the third was converted to a carrier and the fourth remained unfinished. Effectively produced in secret, we knew they were building something big but had no idea.
18" guns!!!!
Both the Yamato and its succesor the Musashi fought at Leyte. The latter being sunk on 10/24/44 by 17 bombs and 20 torpedos!!!
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Gene
climber
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Jul 19, 2007 - 06:53pm PT
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Woody,
I look forward to reading the book. How is Halsey's run up north judged? The world wonders.
GM
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 19, 2007 - 07:05pm PT
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"Most historians consider Halsey's breakaway action to have been irrelevant and even damaging to the Allied cause."
John Keegan
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Gene
climber
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Jul 19, 2007 - 07:08pm PT
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Ron,
Agreed. Maybe more of the latter. The USN was very fortunate at Leyte. Just like at Midway. Thank God Halsey wasn't in command at Midway. Spruance was the right man at the right place at the right time.
GM
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 19, 2007 - 07:16pm PT
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Good thing Ray Spruance could go from cruisers to carriers, but saying we got lucky is an understatement. It took eight disasterous tries before that magic moment when we caught them flat footed.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2007 - 07:26pm PT
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Gene,
To be fair to Halsey, his orders were less than precise; and he had good reason to believe that Kurita's squadron was out of the fight due to the pounding it took in the Sibuyan Sea. Halsey was the Patton of the navy: highly aggressive and somewhat impetuous. A more cautious admiral would have pondered the remote possibility that Kurita might turn around and, therefore, leave a covering force to protect the landing beaches and support carriers. Halsey's orders, however, left him to make that judgement. His reputation was saved, with a bit of bruising, by the incredible actions of the destroyer/destroyer escort screen.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 19, 2007 - 07:44pm PT
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Saved indeed. "The destroyer escort that fought like a battleship"
I like the way Kurita backed off because he thought he was fighting Halsey's carrier force.
And the planes of Sprague's six escort carriers weren't equipped to fight battleships. Pretty desperate scenario.
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Gene
climber
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Jul 19, 2007 - 07:47pm PT
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Woody,
Yeah. Again I agree. My point was that the USN may have benefited from Halsey not being in command at Midway. His aggressiveness could have turned victory into disaster. At Midway, Spruance got out while the getting was good. That said, it was Halsey that pushed for Spruance to take command when he was in sick bay.
Leyte is such an amazing, complex and multi-dimensional battle. And it could have turned on the padding (the world wonders) in the signal to Halsey.
Again, I look forward to reading the book.
Fascinating stuff.
GM
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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Jul 19, 2007 - 08:15pm PT
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Yo.. the history channel has done a couple of great shows about that part of WWII...good stuff!!!
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2007 - 08:15pm PT
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Reply to Seamus and Snp: I've read " The Forgotten Soldier" and "Stalingrad". Both excellent. I've seen "In Harm's Way" in B&N and will pick it up next time I visit.
I've posted some of the following before; however, since we're on a roll here, I'll repeat in case some of you might have missed those posts: "A War Like no Other" by Hanson and "The Peloponnesian War" by Kagan. I read these in Parallel since they covered the war from different angles. " The Battle for Spain"(Spanish Civil War)by Beevor. "The Fourth Crusade and Sack of Constantinople" by J. Phillips. "Rising 44, The Battle for Warsaw" by Davies. " The Fall of Berlin" by Beevor. And, WWI "First Day on the Somme by Middlebrook. I bought this last book years ago off a discount table. Since, I've read that it was republished. I've read it three times. If one reads only one book about WWI, this should be it. All the above are first rate tomes.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jul 19, 2007 - 08:38pm PT
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Gene, that was funnier than hell the way you ended your first post. Did anyone else get it? Very clever.
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axlgrease
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jul 19, 2007 - 08:40pm PT
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My grandmother's brother was in this battle. He was stationed on the USS Hoel (Fletcher-Class destroyer):
http://www.bosamar.com/usforces/dd533.html
He was one of about 20 survivors from a crew of about 300. After the battle, survivors from the sunken ships spent two days in the water. I heard stories from my dad (his nephew) about how the barracudas were worse than the sharks. He came home from the war psychologically scarred, and died an alcoholic before I was born.
This is a great website about the battle:
http://www.bosamar.com/
I'm in awe of what these guys did - and volunteered for. Uncle Billy was a musician in the Army after he was drafted, and stationed in Honolulu. He volunteered for combat duty as did his brother - who lasted two weeks in Europe before he was killed.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Jul 20, 2007 - 12:15am PT
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Sorry to bump the thread back to the eastern front but I had an old Russian teacher( in the early 80's) that survived the sh#t between Germany and Russia and she talked about the millions of Russian casualties,( forgive the beer spelling, I've been out climbing) she said the 6 million Jews the germans slaughtered was small compared to the
millions of Russians the germans slaughtered on there way into Stalingrad.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2007 - 12:20am PT
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If we're tallying body counts Stalin beats all.
World's greatest murderer.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Jul 20, 2007 - 12:24am PT
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"Shattered Sword, The True Story of The Battle of Midway"
I read this recently and it was pretty good. I can't wait to check out the Leyte Gulf book you recommend.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Jul 20, 2007 - 12:26am PT
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Those of you who are buffs, have you ever played board wargames? They're really more like studies than "games." Here's a link to an excellent company, "Avalanche Press." they have a series of games about WWII naval warfare, including one called "Leyete Gulf." Well worth checking out: http://www.avalanchepress.com/
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2007 - 12:34am PT
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Midway was one of the pivotal battles that Victor Davis Hanson analyzed in Carnage And Culture, a seminal counterpoint to Jared Diamond's environmental determinism school.
Interesting stuff.
For example; he looks at why we had better damage control, a critical factor in our success.
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