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NateC
Mountain climber
Las Vegas, NV
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Jun 14, 2007 - 05:46pm PT
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I'm confused. First of all what does that have to do with the draft?
Secondly, while there is no question that Blackwater has shady ties and ways of operating, I'm very put off by the tone of the article and the piss poor journalism.
My main reason- If this reporter doesn't know the difference between a merc and and a contractor and can't get those differences straight in an article, how can I believe or be concerned with any of the other facts or arguements that he presents.
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NateC
Mountain climber
Las Vegas, NV
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Jun 14, 2007 - 05:52pm PT
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I'm not here to argue the politics side and regarding Blackwater or anyone else. But there's a huge difference between a merc and a contractor.
An American citizen working as a mercenary is commiting a crime punishable by death. The difference is in who's dirty work they are doing.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2007 - 05:52pm PT
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right about the journalism.
with regards to the draft, in the old days the army didnt contract everything out. nowadays assuming the article is correct there are an additional 50,000 pvt guns in iraq. guns thatDOD simply has to pay $ for and not feel guilty when they go down...
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 14, 2007 - 05:56pm PT
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This whole Blackwater thing is really interesting to me. The ins and outs of policy, law and economics are really quite fascinating. Personally I find it pretty abominable for many reasons. A lot more information needs to be released on this organization and the decisions to use them, both in Iraq and New Orleans.
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NateC
Mountain climber
Las Vegas, NV
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Jun 14, 2007 - 05:56pm PT
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I understand the point you are trying to make Hawk. The thing is, the DOD doesn't give a sh#t who goes down. The opportunity to work for a contractor is a really good one for a lot of guys who went into the military and are now using those skills to make a healthy living for themself.
Think of it this way, earn 20,000 a year working for someone who doesn't give a sh#t about you, or earn 250,000 a year working for someone who doesn't give a sh#t about you.
At least in the latter position (contractor), the ROE are a lot more loose about being able to defend yourself. A lot of good guys are dying because the ROE are set up so the media doesn't get offended.
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NateC
Mountain climber
Las Vegas, NV
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Jun 14, 2007 - 05:58pm PT
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Crowley, a mercenary does the bidding of a country that is not his own. Period. Like I said, it's about who you are working for.
You must be a U.S. citizen to work for Blackwater.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2007 - 06:00pm PT
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nate, i dont disagree with you from the soldiers perspective. i just wonder if hiring guns is the right thing to do....
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NateC
Mountain climber
Las Vegas, NV
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Jun 14, 2007 - 06:07pm PT
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Hawk, it's hard to say. I see where you are coming from now I think. My opinion...
On one hand it's a good thing, the soldiers in our armed forces are not called upon for some really dangerous duties because of the use of contractors. The contractors still get to serve their country's interests (whether you agree with the politics is not my point, I'm talking from the soldiers eyes) but be compensated appropriately and operate under ROE that are arguable safer for the contractor on the ground.
On the other hand, accountability is the biggest issue. Who is to answer if a contractor steps outside the line and acts like a cowboy.
The biggest misconception about contractors is that they are given guns, hummers and tactical gear and then allowed to roam the countryside like a bunch of regulators in a wild west movie. They really aren't but because they operate in a grey area that the media is not privy to, the media sensationalizes much of what they are doing over there.
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NateC
Mountain climber
Las Vegas, NV
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Jun 14, 2007 - 06:09pm PT
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Crowley, it's very obvious from your statements that I have a fair bit more knowledge of the subject than you.
You can keep believing that these are paid hitmen. Without any information on the subject and dismissively writing it off as contractors and mercs are the same thing you prove that you don't know enough to be entitled to your opinion.
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NateC
Mountain climber
Las Vegas, NV
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Jun 14, 2007 - 06:14pm PT
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You wouldn't even know contractors existed if it weren't for news outlets. Television, radio, articles like the one listed in the original post make it seem like our government has let loose a bunch of "Rambo" characters on the citizens of Iraq.
Ok Crowley, I'll give you the "real scoop" as best I know it about Blackwater and contracting in general.
Much of what contractors are hired and paid for is protecting items/persons of value in situations where our military cannot afford to expend valuable special operations personnel.
If a diplomat, or building is in need of guarding or escort it's more valuable to hire competent contractors who can protect the principal from assassination or overrun. If our military were to expend specops personel on each of these locations, individuals, or instances then there wouldn't be any troops left to carry out the sensitive, and top secret missions that require gifted, trained individuals to do so.
Blackwater, is the worst of these contractors. They abuse the leeway given to them by the situation, they abuse and show a total lack of concern for their contractors and in general they are everything that is wrong with corporations.
Blackwater is not the only contractor operating in Iraq. There are many (100's?). Blackwater is the only one that is ever brought up though because they carry the highest profile, have been involved in major screwups, and have tried to capitalize on the cowboy image that contracting has been given. Blackwater is the only company I'm aware of that treats their contractors and their business like the are "mercenaries" (expendable individuals).
Is that enough info, or should I provide more.
Locker, I'm not sure if you were laughing at me or the statement, but 250,000 a year is a very real amount for many qualified contractors.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jun 14, 2007 - 06:24pm PT
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AC: I watch NO "news", simply because it is largely disinformation.
hahaha! yeah.. the internet is so much more on track.... get out the foil hats.
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NateC
Mountain climber
Las Vegas, NV
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Jun 14, 2007 - 06:28pm PT
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Well then Crowley, where did you hear about Blackwater? Are you a former special warfare operator that they contacted to your suprise?
For the record, I'm VERY against the war and my country's current state of foreign affairs. I'm not here to pick fights based on politics. I find it offensive though, that people's perceptions of these individuals is to broadly paint them with the brush of money hungry murderers. A perception that would be hard to form in my opinion without having been exposed to military contracting by a popular media outlet of some source.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2007 - 06:30pm PT
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like this one russ?
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NateC
Mountain climber
Las Vegas, NV
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Jun 14, 2007 - 06:34pm PT
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Locker,
Blackwater can only be hired by the US Gov't to do the work they are currently doing.
Being hired out to do the dirty work of the highest bidder is what mercenaries do. That's precisely why, I tried to make the distinction. It's illegal for a U.S. citizen to go and participate in the war of a foreign country as a for hire employment.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2007 - 06:35pm PT
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from thier website
Blackwater was founded in 1997 from a clear vision developed from an understanding of the need for innovative, flexible training and operational solutions to support security and peace, and freedom and democracy everywhere.
Our founder is a former U. S. Navy SEAL. He created Blackwater on the belief that both the military and law enforcement establishments would require additional capacity to train fully our brave men and women in and out of uniform to the standards required to keep our country secure.
Blackwater USA consists of nine separate business units: Blackwater Training Center (the largest private firearms and tactical training center in the U. S.), Blackwater Target Systems, Blackwater Security Consulting, Blackwater Canine, Maritime Security, manufacturing of custom Armored Vehicles, Parachute Jump Team, Aviation, and Raven Development Group. We also have relationships with our strategic partners, Aviation Worldwide Services and Greystone Ltd.
We are not simply a "private security company." We are a professional military, law enforcement, security, peacekeeping, and stability operations firm who provides turnkey solutions. We assist with the development of national and global security policies and military transformation plans. We can train, equip and deploy public safety and military professionals, build live-fire indoor/outdoor ranges, MOUT facilities and shoot houses, create ground and aviation operations and logistics support packages, develop and execute canine solutions for patrol and explosive detection, and can design and build facilities both domestically and in austere environments abroad.
Blackwater lives its core values of excellence, efficiency, execution, and teamwork. In doing this, we have become the most responsive, cost-effective means of affecting the strategic balance in support of security and peace, and freedom and democracy everywhere.
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from a news source.....
Blackwater USA was co-founded by former Navy Seal Erik Prince, a "billionaire right-wing fundamentalist Christian from a powerful Michigan Republican family. A major Republican campaign contributor, he interned in the White House of President George H.W. Bush and campaigned for Pat Buchanan in 1992. He founded the mercenary firm Blackwater USA in 1997 with Gary Jackson, another former Navy SEAL." [2]
Prince's father, Edgar Prince, and Gary Bauer started the Family Research Council, where Prince interned. Prince's sister, Betsy DeVos, is a former chair of the Michigan Republican Party. [3]
Blackwater USA received no-bid contracts in Iraq, Afghanistan, and "post-Katrina New Orleans" from the current Bush administration.
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kind of like one of those tom clancy books i read about high tech contracted military firms.
this one obviously has a republican bent. the scary thing is what lengths will they go to to keep republicans in power?
the problem is through the us governments contracts with this company, they have grown pretty powerful in a military type sense, and yet have none of the "moral" obligations of a government force.
wtf am i talking about, look at the war we started....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 14, 2007 - 06:36pm PT
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NateC - Blackwater 'contractors' aren't mercenaries. Good one!!!
They aren't mercenaries in the same way we only use rendition to have polite conversations with persons of interest.
Blackwater mercs and real contractors in general were essential to Rumsfeld's plan both to go in light in general, but with an extra 33% of off-book resources. Aside from sapping the military of some expensive to train resources, these mercs are used for all kinds of dirty shadow work the military can't and won't own.
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Blackwater-Rise-Worlds-Powerful-Mercenary/dp/1560259795/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-7026029-2112460?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181860047&sr=8-1" target="new"]Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army[/url]
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Corporate-Warriors-Privatized-Military-Industry/dp/0801489156/ref=pd_bbs_2/105-7026029-2112460?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181860047&sr=8-2" target="new"]Corporate Warriors: The Rise of the Privatized Military Industry (Cornell Studies in Security Affairs)[/url]
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Licensed-Kill-Hired-Guns-Terror/dp/1400097819/ref=pd_bbs_3/105-7026029-2112460?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181860047&sr=8-3" target="new"]Licensed to Kill: Hired Guns in the War on Terror[/url]
[url="http://www.amazon.com/Bloody-Business-Americas-Contractors-Occupation/dp/0760323550/ref=pd_sim_b_2/105-7026029-2112460?ie=UTF8&qid=1181860047&sr=8-3" target="new"]A Bloody Business: America's War Zone Contractors and the Occupation of Iraq[/url]
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NateC
Mountain climber
Las Vegas, NV
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Jun 14, 2007 - 06:46pm PT
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Healy, It's in the definition, not the duty.
Many of you who are painting such an ugly picture of contractors are the same people who pride yourselves on being open minded and educated.
Someone tell me this since I seem to be getting addressed as the ignorant one. What's the difference between Delta Force operators going into Iraq and leading the charge secretly and specially hired "Contractors" going into Irage and leading the charge secretly for a country in which they are a citizen?
The simple answer in my opinion...$200,000.
They both work for a government who doesn't give a sh#t about their life or sacrifice. They both are doing their civic duty (politics aside). One is just being compensated appropriately, the other is not.
On a corporate level, I disagree with much of what has been done, similar to the rest of you guys. On an individual level, I think it's highly inappropriate to call these men on the ground "killers, murderers" and whatever else they've been named.
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NateC
Mountain climber
Las Vegas, NV
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Jun 14, 2007 - 06:56pm PT
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Organizations such as Blackwater are new to Americans, at least knowingly.
The costs of these "contractors" to us taxpayers will perhaps never be known, and the deployment of such mercs into disaster-areas such as NOLA is completely unprecidented and perhaps illegal under the Posse Comitatis Act.
There is no oversight or accountability for the actions of these "contractors", and the organization itself is the subject of significant controversy from the families of Blackwater Merc's gone missing and dead.
Crowley,
I agree with all of this. However, contractors have been employed by the U.S. since at least World War II. The face has changed significantly though because of the changes in the way that the CIA has been allowed to operate. Specifically since the Bay of Pigs.
My biggest argument in all of this, is that some of the most compassionate, upstanding, intelligent people I know are contractors working in Iraq. Many of them disagree with the situation and share politics closely with Crowley and others. They are not bloodthirsty killers, they are soldiers but they are soldiers who decided that if they were going to have their lives risked in Iraq that they should be compensated appropriately. None of them are running through the Middle East killing indiscriminately.
And to further the argument. Wouldn't most of us agree that if killing is going to go on, then it's better that a few highly trained and willing individuals operate off the radar and eliminate highly valued targets (terrorists who are operating themselves as mercenaries in Iraq)if it's going to shorten this conflict?
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