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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 17, 2007 - 01:33am PT
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For those of you (and I know there aren't many) that still think that things are OK in how we've gone about this war, or perhaps a few more of you, who think that it is somehow treasonous to question the actions of the military during a war, here is a blistering criticism of the conduct of US military leadership by someone on the inside, published in an official Army publication. The author is an active duty Lt. Colonel, very well-respected, with service in Iraq.
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2007/05/2635198
If this doesn't get you, I suggest you try reading Once an Eagle, by Anton Myrer. Perhaps if Bush had read this, and understood it, we wouldn't be in this godawful mess.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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May 17, 2007 - 08:49am PT
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And the war drags on...
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 17, 2007 - 08:58am PT
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Just read an interesting piece by John Gravois on Slate, arguing the US has become the victim of too much positive thinking. He cites an aptly-titled book by Cornell prof. Karen Cerula, Never Saw It Coming.
The Slate article starts out lightly, as a letter to Oprah, but segues eventually to the rosy best-case imaginations behind "We will be greeted as liberators!" and "Mission accomplished!", which brought such disastrous results.
http://www.slate.com/id/2166211
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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May 17, 2007 - 09:34am PT
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Steve, I read "Once An Eagle." Well written, and definitely worth slogging through the 9000 plus pages! I heard it took the author years and years to compose.
What really gets me about the so-called "liberal media," is when they show polls of how people feel about how Bush is "handling the war in Iraq," as if that's the central question. What about the question of whether the guy should be held criminally accountable for sending military force in in the first place?
Oh, and asking Bush to read and understood a book might be just a bit over the top.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 17, 2007 - 11:51am PT
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They is still plenty of time to put the real criminals in prison for life, all those in the adminstration who knew full well that there were no WMDs or link to Al Queda.
This is becoming more clear every day with revelations from very high sources. The war was a lie, a crime and if we don't hold the criminals accountable for the billions of dollars and thousands of lives, justice will be meaningless in this land.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/05/16/1221/
Just read it and tell me we had some cause to go in there.
PS. Fatty, Sadr was let live because he's the most important Shiite who doesn't believe in a serious Iran influence. How do we win if we kill more people who didn't ever attack us in the first place? Shame on you, even if that was a joke.
Peace
karl
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 17, 2007 - 12:06pm PT
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fattrad:
Or, just nuke the place and we win (I don't really want that)
Yes, I think you do. On SuperTopo of all places your singleminded mission has been to bang drums day and night for war, aiming towards the greatest ethnic cleansing of all time.
As for what went wrong in Iraq, there's a new insider's analysis by Lt. Col. Paul Yingling in the Armed Forces Journal, "A failure in generalship." Yingling's critique has gotten little attention in the media so far as I've seen, but it's making waves in the blogosphere and even more within the military itself.
"For the second time in a generation, the United States faces the prospect of defeat at the hands of an insurgency. In April 1975, the U.S. fled the Republic of Vietnam, abandoning our allies to their fate at the hands of North Vietnamese communists. In 2007, Iraq's grave and deteriorating condition offers diminishing hope for an American victory and portends risk of an even wider and more destructive regional war.
These debacles are not attributable to individual failures, but rather to a crisis in an entire institution: America's general officer corps. America's generals have failed to prepare our armed forces for war and advise civilian authorities on the application of force to achieve the aims of policy. The argument that follows consists of three elements. First, generals have a responsibility to society to provide policymakers with a correct estimate of strategic probabilities. Second, America's generals in Vietnam and Iraq failed to perform this responsibility. Third, remedying the crisis in American generalship requires the intervention of Congress."
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2007/05/2635198
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 17, 2007 - 12:20pm PT
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that's great, everyone gets some blame, except for those whose fault it really was.
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spyork
Social climber
A prison of my own creation
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May 17, 2007 - 12:33pm PT
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I don't usually cut and paste, but hey, my life is changing.
From Wikipedia...
Hubris:
Hubris or hybris (Greek ὕβρις), according to its modern usage, is exaggerated self pride or self-confidence (overbearing pride), often resulting in fatal retribution
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dirtbag
climber
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May 17, 2007 - 12:45pm PT
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No Fatty, IGNORANCE about the middle east and ARROGANCE about our ability to "solve" things have been the biggest problems all along.
Throughout history, the more we have meddled, the more we have f*#ked up things in the Middle East, almost without exception. We cannot play God there. IT WILL NOT WORK. PERIOD.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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May 17, 2007 - 12:47pm PT
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jstan
climber
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May 17, 2007 - 12:59pm PT
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Now we are getting motion! FR suggests taxes and gasoline rationing. He is right. Now the next question. Do we feel this war is sufficiently connected to our national interest to justify imposition of a military draft? This was the question the elder Bush had to ask himself in the early 90's and came up with a negative. So he stayed well clear of the population centers - even with a half million people on the ground.
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 17, 2007 - 01:07pm PT
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Chiloe, that's a great observation - too much positive thinking can be just a deadly as its opposite. "Close your eyes and click your heels" and it will be all over type of thinking. Those statements "Greeted as Liberators", "Mission Accomplished" remind me of hollow New Age affirmations. Although adherents of Bush's policy would proabably abhor such a comparison!
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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May 17, 2007 - 01:08pm PT
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Looks familiar?
This cartoon is from 1901; "The Filipino War." It started in 1899 and "officially ended in 1902, but in actuality it ended in 1915.
CASUALTY FIGURES:
U.S.-- 4,234 dead and 2,818 wounded.
Philippines-- 20,000 military dead.
Civilian deaths "Official deaths 200,000"
Historians are now estimating that it may be actually 1,000,000 deaths.
Mostly from concentration camps, starvation from Americans withholding food supplies, and chloral. (Chloral caused from civilians hiding in the Jungle.)
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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May 17, 2007 - 01:14pm PT
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"War is won by the killing/wounding of more of an opponents troops/population and fewer of yours. Or, the destruction of an opponents economy."
and that's why what we are doing is not fighting a war but occupying a middle eastern country, which in turn is engaged in a civil war.
that's why this is a QUAGMIRE
just like VIET NAM
with no CLEAR MISSION
and no EXIT STRATEGY
it's a clusterf*#k and has been from the get-go
it was all a lie from the start
it was always about access to oil reserves
it was never about WMDs, freedom for iraqis, or an evil dictator
we were all better off w/ SH holding iran in check
now iran will go nook-ya-leer and saudi arabia, egypt, and eventually others will follow suit
there has never been a greater blunder by this country or it's leaders
george w bush will long be remembered as the incompetent lackey moron that he is and has always been, and our children and grandchildren will ask why/how we ever let them get away with it all.
the only questions left are if he will actually pardon everyone associated with his administration (thus admitting their collective guilt) or if there will ever be real justice again in america.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 17, 2007 - 01:19pm PT
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Even Tony Blair has recently admitted that he doesn't know what victory in Iraq means.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 17, 2007 - 01:27pm PT
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Sure, why not? We can use millions more Muslims angry at us.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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May 17, 2007 - 01:34pm PT
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Did you know we won every battle in Vietnam? We lost the war despite winning every battle because we had no definition of what winning meant.
You need to study war to understand that first you must have a defined goal to achieve in order to win.
Just read Carl von Clausewitz about war strategy and it will explain everything.
Anyway, the Pentagon already predicted that this war will turn into a civil war and be impossible to control in 1998!
AF
Edit: Carl Von Clausewitz writings is taught at all military schools including West Point, so it can't hurt reading him despite your personal views.
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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May 17, 2007 - 01:48pm PT
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Folks, maybe I'm blind, but I'm wondering if fattrad is just yanking everyone's chains. I'm kind of thinking he just posts something, then sits back and enjoys the ruccus he creates by it. If not, dang!! That stuff's messed up!!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 17, 2007 - 01:54pm PT
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Fatty wrote
>War is won by the killing/wounding of more of an opponents troops/population and fewer of yours. Or, the destruction of an opponents economy. The nuke comment was not a joke, but it is not something I desire or foresee as necessary.<
That's a relief! I thought we lost Vietnam but I guess since we killed a couple million gooks and only lost 50,000 that the whole thing was won and worth it?
Come on, you're not that dense. War is won by winning it's unstated aims, in this case, control of the geo-political zone of Iraq. Otherwise we already won, the WMDs are gone, Saddam is dead, and there is a government in place. This is about controlling the power, money, land and oil of Iraq. They didn't do anything to us.
A strong argument has been made, with documentation that, for the US, it's really about checking the upcoming power of China. China is going to need oil. Look at Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq on the Map and play some chess.
>The biggest mistake the Bush Admin. has done is to not ask the American public to make any sacrifice for the "war" effort. Could have been higher taxes, gas rationing, etc. <
WTF, so it's lack of money? We've already spent a half trillion and the costs wil mount even if we leave. The only sacrifice possibly needed would be to draft soldiers to work cheap rather than pay over 100,000 contractors who make way more than soldiers.
The real joke is obvious when you put the shoe on the other foot. Let's say the Saudies were far richer, more populous and powerful than the US, and let's say they invaded us. How many Americans would they have to kil before you'd support their puppet government and give up all reisistance?
>.....However, this war is not just about Iraq, it's about Saudi Wahhabi clerics and Iranian Mullahs, to have a victory(military/economic) would require greater resources devoted to the military (draft/equipment). There would have been a war regardless of 9/11, Saddam, etc. <
Come on Fatty, the Saudi Wahhabis and the Iranians are not remotely connected except to oppose regional imperialism. Leave and they'll start fighting each other again. Shiite are oppressed in Saudi Arabia.
You just can't force people to be slaves. They can and will resist. Let's GFTO and try a better approach
Peace
Karl
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