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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 16, 2007 - 08:11pm PT
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Somebody provide a link.
This is a story close to home. For 30 years the U of U banned guns on campus but it was challenged by the Atty General, and as a result the legislature ruled that CCW permits WERE good on campus, but that students could elect not to room with a gun owning student.
No doubt today's carnage will reignite the debate.
My feeling; if there had been a legitimate CCW holder among the students attacked today there could have been far fewer dead.
Years ago there was an attack on a school in Israel that was quickly ended by an armed teacher.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
Hell on earth wondering what I did to deserve it
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Apr 16, 2007 - 08:12pm PT
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As someone who works on campus, I think allowing guns on campus would be the worst thing to do. Period. End of story.
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 16, 2007 - 08:39pm PT
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How about as someone with access to violent crime statistics database and the expertise to gain intelligent insights from the data?
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murcy
climber
San Fran Cisco
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Apr 16, 2007 - 08:41pm PT
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you think grade inflation is bad now.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
Hell on earth wondering what I did to deserve it
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Apr 16, 2007 - 08:50pm PT
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As someone who works as a criminologist researching violence (including homicide and gun violence), I think allowing guns on campus would be the worst thing to do. Period. End of story.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 16, 2007 - 08:53pm PT
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Come to think of it,
I've never met a College prof
(or anyone with a PHD)
that should be issued a CCWP.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Apr 16, 2007 - 08:56pm PT
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Here at CSUN the campus police carry guns as do some of the students.
Jeff
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
Hell on earth wondering what I did to deserve it
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Apr 16, 2007 - 08:57pm PT
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TGT - in total agreement.
I don't own a gun and won't own a gun myself. Only an idiot would give me one. I was raised in Texas (known for a subculture of violence) and I know for sure, a weapon is the last thing I should have.
I certainly wouldn't want any of my colleagues, students or administrators with one either. The stories I could of Ph.D.s flailing their gangly arms at one another in a "fight" over the STUPIEST things...
The only person I can control is me, so it should make everyone out there in taco-land happy to know that I don't own/carry a gun, nor will I.
edit: On our campus, the police carry guns. Plus, given I work in a criminology/criminal justice dept., several of our students who are LEOs carry them. That's okay with me. The rest of us schmucks though - keep the weapons away!
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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Apr 16, 2007 - 08:58pm PT
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"My feeling; if there had been a legitimate CCW holder among the students attacked today there could have been far fewer dead."
My feeling - if carrying lethal weapons in educational settings was legalized, these incidents would happen far more frequently when unstable people who commonly carry handguns around with them snap because of a slur, a low grade, or some other perceived injustice. Ms. Crimpergirl can probably cite the statistics that support my feeling.
Ron, your feeling is based on the idea that everyone is as rational and precise in their life as you are. Which is not the case, and we all ought to be willing to sacrifice this inconsequential "right" in order to create more actual safety, rather than this delusional idea of ubiquitous vigilantism.
"delusional idea of ubiquitous vigilantism" - damn, I came up with that on the fly, pretty complex phrase.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Apr 16, 2007 - 09:01pm PT
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I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the students that were "trapped like rats" waiting to find out if they were on this as#@&%e's hit list wish they had a gun.
That may have been the LAST wish of many of them.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 16, 2007 - 09:03pm PT
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College is crazy sh#t. There are all the kids who've just learned that there's nobody to tell them when to go to bed or that they have to do their homework or that they shouldn't get plastered on a tuesday night.
Many of them also get to do their first experimentation with the oh-so emotionally stable worlds of romantic relationships and mind-altering substances.
And oh yeah, some people do some schoolwork and get stressed about that too.
This is fine. It's what college is about, I guess.
But I met a decent number of *extremely* unstable people in college. I suspect most of them got their crap together eventually, but college is definitely *not* the most stable time in a lot of people's lives.
Adding firearms to that equation seems like a recipe for disaster.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Apr 16, 2007 - 09:06pm PT
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This multiple murder on campus is a stunning and awful event. I hope that the people of this country might be able to keep it in perspective though, and not over react. Statistically the chances of being shot in a school or at a university are less than a million to one. We are all still pretty safe.
I am a gun ownwer and gun rights advocate, however I have a really hard time with the idea teachers, students, or other university employees packing heat will make us generally safer. Yes, Piton Ron is right that in this case someone with a gun could have taken out the shooter and saved lives. But to generally increase the presence of guns all across our schools in response to this event is unwise. As would be banning gun ownership by law abiding citizens.
The media and politicians will whip up a frenzy over this sad event and the real good of the people and the truth will be obscured by clouds.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
Hell on earth wondering what I did to deserve it
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Apr 16, 2007 - 09:10pm PT
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True true. Violent victimization, including homicide, is far less likely on school or university grounds than it is away from school or university settings.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 16, 2007 - 09:14pm PT
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To bad Piton Ron or fattrad wasn't there at Virgina Tech. The shooter would have been terminated early.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Apr 16, 2007 - 09:21pm PT
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"....based on the idea that everyone is as rational and precise in their life...."
That statement is at the crux of why many people wouldn't support the idea of carrying guns. I surely wouldn't. In NYC, if people thaough that the majority of the population was packing? - oh....no. Not a good thing. Because then it would most likely escalate to a mindset of who's quickest on the draw. No time for second guessing when you (really) believe the other guy's got a gun.
When I moved into my first apartment here, my place was burglarized 3 weeks afterward. What a horrible feeling of invasion. For weeks afterward, I felt really violated.
My younger brother offered to send me one of my father's old handguns. My first reaction was to say no, but he kept pressing. It was actually a very cute little gun, silver with filagree etching.(Yes, that is all I know about the gun).
I told him, finally "Well.....I'll think about it."
Later I was speaking to my oldest brother and mentioned the idea. He said "The thing you need to know is that if you pull a gun, you had better be prepared to use it, and use it well. Because if the bad guy has got one, he probably doesn't have any reservations, and you've just upped the ante. Do you think you could do that?"
I knew that to have a gun for me would be stupid, when he said that.
(Also - 3 weeks later, my place got broken into again. If I had had that gun, it would surely have been found and stolen.)
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 16, 2007 - 09:23pm PT
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The ideal is having a Piton Ron or Fatrad etc. or possibly the hundreds of vets on campus with a CCW and armed.
A "no gun zone" only provides an inviting target for a nut.
Arming the PHD's (or most students) would be giving the guns to the "nuts".
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10b4me
Trad climber
Hell A
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Apr 16, 2007 - 09:32pm PT
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As someone who works on campus, I think allowing guns on campus would be the worst thing to do. Period. End of story.
well said.
furthermore, we need to revisit the 2nd amendment.
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Burns
Trad climber
Nowhere special
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Apr 16, 2007 - 09:33pm PT
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Come on now Ron. 70% of the kids on that campus aren't deemed responsible enough in the eyes of the government to choose to buy alcohol. Do you they are really responsible enough to choose to carry a gun? Add the alcohol to the equation and you've got somebody getting shot at some college every weekend or so. Schools are no place for guns. There's nothing to hunt and nothing to defend yourself from except the other people with guns. Yeah, if some kid was packing in class, he might have stopped this rather quickly. But who remebers to pack their 9 before they go to Heat Transfer 302? The cost/benefit just doesn't work out.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
Hell on earth wondering what I did to deserve it
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Apr 16, 2007 - 09:33pm PT
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There are already police officers who carry guns on campus. Clearly it didn't work here. Nor does it work during bank robberies. So, having folks with guns doesn't work. This isn't to say that these people should be removed from campus (or a bank). But it shows that is not necessarily the answer. Or not necessarily the whole answer.
Maybe we can never make anyplace 100% safe.
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TradIsGood
Happy and Healthy climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 16, 2007 - 09:35pm PT
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Period. End of story...
True true. Violent victimization, including homicide, is far less likely on school or university grounds than it is away from school or university settings.
How about potential violent victimization when the potential victim is armed? Of course, one problem here is that this statistic does not get into the database, since the violence has to occur to be recorded?...
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