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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 28, 2007 - 03:12pm PT
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I stepped downstairs this morning to the horrific site of water damage on the plaster ceiling (and plaster crown moulding. doh). It's my #$#$@#@ shower again. Water is getting in crevices in the grout and making trouble. I had a guy *fix* it a couple of years ago, but it's up to it's old tricks. He just put a bead of silicone at each dihedral.
I've searched the internet for suggestions and come up empty handed. Do you guys have a suggestion for the best way to handle this? I've scraped all the old silicone off already. Before I go and buy a gob of silicone, I wanted to see what you had to say.
Thanks in advance.
edit: Oh, and sorry for the off topic. At least it's peaceful.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 28, 2007 - 03:49pm PT
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If there's enough water to ruin the ceiling, you probably have a plumbing leak.
Since you have to repair the ceiling anyway, I'd start by punching a small hole in the ceiling and investigate where the leak is coming from. You sure don't want to either fix the wrong problem and have the leak go nuclear on you or tear out a bunch of tile for nothing.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2007 - 03:55pm PT
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The leak takes about two years to show up on the ceiling, so I don't think it's plumbing. Just a slow obnoxious leak (hey better than a big one). Plus, I ripped a big hole in my closet (which shares a wall with the shower plumbing) to inspect the pipes. No leak there. But now there is a big hole. :)
Maybe I just need to silicone on an annual basis instead of waiting until it shows on the ceiling. The house is old (all plumbing redone about 6 years ago), so the damage is to plaster ceilings and the wood slats under it. Friggin bomb shelter I live in.
So, it sounds like silicone is an okay way to go then?
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jan 28, 2007 - 03:57pm PT
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Sounds like a leaky pipe or pipe fitting. If its on a pressurized pipe, all the caulking in the world ain't going to stop it. Best be for checking the pipes and getting them fixed
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 28, 2007 - 04:01pm PT
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I just finished dealing with such a leak and the major source was that the faucet was leaking around the stems then back thru the trim collars and into the wall. That won't show up unless the shower is running.
If you've eliminated that and the plumbing as a source silicone away.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2007 - 04:02pm PT
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Thanks.
If this is a pipe issue, I'm repairing the cosmetics and selling the $#@! house. Or I'll quit showering. Or I'll let the ceiling come in and put a bucket in the entry way.
Man, tearing out all this plaster is NOT something I want to deal with. Well, tearing it would would be fun (but hard) work. Putting it back up would SUCK. The crown moulding and ceiling details are all plaster too. So getting that looking good would require a real artisan. Any of those around still? It's not me for sure.
This type of home owner issue is a reason that renting is sooooo nice. :)
edit:
Ah, nice to see TGT. I'll check the pipes while the shower is running to see if there isn't a little leak there just to be sure.
This problem started when I had a guy install a shower head that had super water pressure. It's amazing. BUT it's so amazing that I think it takes a toll on the grout/silicone. Advantages and disadvantages to all things I guess.
Thanks everyone!
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jstan
climber
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Jan 28, 2007 - 04:10pm PT
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I am a noobe when it comes to tile so take this accordingly. In general silicone is applied to expansion joints because...it is flexible. If I were sealing other than expansion joints I would be tempted to get a grout knife(SiC), grind out the grout, float new grout( the kind requiring mixing) and then apply standard sealant. I tried the pre-prepared stuff once and met with disaster. If you are working with an actual expansion joint doing the same might be what is required to properly prepare a clean surface and appropriate bond line for the slicone application. I would guess this is your problem. But what do I know?
If you don't have a commercial shower base you may have a shower base consisting of waterproof sheeting formed into a box carefully built on the decking, the volume inside the sheeting filled with mortar particles, then water resistant mortarboard, followed by the tile. As to the shower walls, codes in some areas require plastic sheeting on the framing. After that mortarboard and tile go on(in that order). If you have drawings for the house you may find a lot of useful information on them. Our shower is laid on a concrete slab laid on top of the floor joists(one story). When I saw that I was one surprised puppy. I had wondered why those beams in the crawlspace were so hefty.
I found ignorance makes tile work an extended activity so what you do will be assisted if you have a second shower. I had to get into a frame of mind that I was mainly interested in learning. I could not think just in terms of being DONE. It is a whole new discipline. And great fun.....if you have to do it only once every ten years.
Edit:
As to dry wall and plaster you don't have to worry as long as you are not doing it yourself. Drywall finishers are really quite expert. When they and the plasterers are done you won't see a thing. Plasterers love making a mess, but hey. Nobody is perfect.
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susan peplow
climber
www.joshuatreevacationhomes.com
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Jan 28, 2007 - 04:15pm PT
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Crimper,
You keep talking about silicone but your original post says, "getting in crevices in the grout and making trouble". Is your shower tile with grout? Or some other animal like fiberglass?
If it's tile w/grout, than that sh*t's gotta come out and get redone. I had a similar problem in my shower. I had about a 1 1/2' by 2' section on the lower part of my shower where the grout was cracked. The poor integrity of the grout was allowing water to get in behind the grout and track along the bottom part of my shower pan and eventually to the drywall next to the shower area.
My personal handyman Russ was able to remove all the old tile without breaking it. He cut out and replaced a custom sized peice of new greenboard to replace the old wet one and replace the tile leaving the re-grout portion for me. It didn't take long and solved the problem completely. I was thankful we didn't have to rip out the entire shower and start over. What a hassle and expense.
Silicone over grout is a poor bandaid and will likely continue to give you trouble. Scrape that old grout out with a scraper or dremel tool with grout bit (much advised). If you think you can get away with not replacing the back board in the offending area then go for it. But re-grout the area the correct way and you will likely not have to deal with it again.
Don't you just love homeownership?
~Susan
p.s. this is all assuming that the problem is with the grout allowing water behind the tile - if it's a leak...you've got bigger problems.
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spud
climber
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Jan 28, 2007 - 04:16pm PT
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Spend the $$$ to get it fixed. You could be looking at a
MOLD
problem. Can't sell a moldy house.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jan 28, 2007 - 04:17pm PT
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What is the shower surround material ? Fiberglas, tile, masonite, plastic, etc... Each has different methods for repair of the surface/corner areas. Also, is the shower one piece, or the kind with a separate "tub" floor. Again, this comes into play, as it sounds like you have a saturation problem somewhere. If it is a pipe leak, more than likely it is around fixture areas and is usually not difficult to fix.
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chollapete
Trad climber
tucson, az
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Jan 28, 2007 - 04:21pm PT
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Funny you ask this now. I'm about 3 months into changing from earning a living as an RN to earning a living in construction.
A great info source in general is contractortalk.com, but if you aren't a professional they want you to post in the "Homeowners' DIY" forum.
One thing I've learned is that per code, a shower requires two layers of water seal. The inner seal is some kind of sheet material behind the tile that has the seams sealed with silicone. Then the tile/cultured marble/stone/whatever that is the finish surface. This is sealed with grout and silicone caulking.
My first question would be, what kind of building do you live in? Is it a newer subdivision-type house, an older multi-story apartment-type building, a newer multi-story apartment-type building? Is it a condo conversion? 2-story walk-up?
And, what part of the country? New York City, St. Louis, older city center or newer suburban?
I'm guessing older, apartment-type building as you mention plaster crown moulding. (It's all plastic if painted, today.) Don't worry about tearing out the wall in the closet--easy to fix. As for artisans, there were a bunch of old-school plasterers in New Orleans, so with their recent diaspora, that might be an angle to try.
The other advice is good: you need to determine exactly what is leaking and where. If the ceiling is already ruined and the water is leaking there or the pipes are there, you might want to look there.
HTH
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 28, 2007 - 04:24pm PT
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Just see, ....... all the plumbers and shower contractors have shown up.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 28, 2007 - 04:28pm PT
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Regarding the nipple connecting to your showerhead supply. People love to put in nipples that are little more than flush with the wall. What do you need to get the miserable thing out?? An Inside Pipe Wrench!!! My guess is Jello came up with his design for cams moments after he used one of these to fix his shower.
PS
I had to get a political comment in here somewhere.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2007 - 04:59pm PT
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Lots of good stuff here. To answer some questions...
The shower is 100%tile. Almost all the way to the ceiling. One 'wall' is the glass door. The other wall is 2/3 glass. It backs up to the tub. All tile is grouted. The bathroom was updated about 6 years ago (before I bought).
I live in a 1938 house. It's in St. Louis County (Pasadena Hills for those of you familiar).
It's the cursed grout. I'm sure it is. %$#$#@#! Worst thing is that the friggin' tiles are the little 1"x1" jobs. A grout-removal nightmare.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 28, 2007 - 05:05pm PT
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Ah so now we know.
We're all coming over in a few moments, shovel the snow off that basketball court in the back.
Let the games begin. Screw the shower. It's basketball time!
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jan 28, 2007 - 05:18pm PT
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The one inch tiles aren't helping your cause much. They come mounted on 1' sheets of flexible grid material--I think that their best use is for floors and walls, but not showers, too many micro-joints to leak or fail. Six-inch ceramic tiles, or larger (marbles and slates, too) set on wonderboard type concrete sheetrock seems to be an affordable way to go and achieve a high-end result. Not hiring out the labor is the way to keep costs down--finds friends to help in the "tiling party". Their are many sources on how to do the work--it is not difficult, but is precise and time consuming (which is why contractors charge accordingly)
Water problems do not go away, and when damage occurs from leaks, do not hesitate to fix the problem correctly and with finality.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 28, 2007 - 05:34pm PT
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To lift a line from Terminator II. "That's a nice house."
From a very good year also.
I have one inch tile on the floor also.
Get the right tool for removing the grout.
You can stack more than one blade
if your grout line is wide. Visible SiC
blobs on the business edge of the blade.
Don't mess with Dremel tools unless
you want to retile the floor. Like I said,
just plan to take awhile. When the going
gets tough go out and get a tool. Any tool.
You will feel like you are in control. Har,har,har!
Read the directions on the grout BEFORE
floating it. Have everything ready. I worried
too much about haze. Look on the positive
side. If it is hazy it will be less slippery. On
a kitchen counter haze might be more of a
problem. So doing your shower is good
practice for when you remodel your kitchen.
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Crimpergirl
Social climber
St. Looney
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2007 - 05:48pm PT
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Thanks for all the helpful advice! It's funny, I'd not noticed all the tiling details in my shower before this. The bottom is a fiberglass pan. Yay. Then, around the top edge of that is about 6"x2" white tiles. Then above that is the evil 1"x1" jobs. Looks like the culprit is where the white tiles meet the little guys. This looks to me to be a silicone location. I'm inspecting the little guys and the grout looks good though I am sure some sealant would be good.
Okay, pizza is in the oven, a fire is on, beer is open and the basketball is ready. I'll even remove the wren house from the hoop so everyone can play! Man, I wish it were so...
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chollapete
Trad climber
tucson, az
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Jan 28, 2007 - 06:10pm PT
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Just a couple of thoughts:
If you're a do-it-yourselfer (and aren't we all at heart), your first inclination might be a big-box home store. I'd recommend a tile store that's been around forever, instead. Big-box clerks come and go at $7 or $9/hr and they're really mostly kids or older kids. Learned that lesson a couple of months ago. At a speciality store (that's survived the big-box onslaught), you'll find deep knowledge and institutional memory. They might even know what was customary six years ago. Same with paint. Same with lumber. Builders don't buy building materials from big-box. ('Course they often install what their homeowner bought there!)
If you're positive it's the grout, you could replace it yourself. I've never done it, but I'm thinking a Dremel to clean out the cracks, then a sanded grout rubbed in and cleaned with a damp sponge. Don't get ahead of yourself or you'll be chipping it off.
Could the new, high-pressure shower head have caused a leak to start in pipe connections due to higher pressures? Also, six years ago makes me wonder if they used PVC pipe. Don't know how things were done in St. Louis then, but the early-generation PVC pipe tended to leak. Some nasty litigation ensued. Current-generation stuff is fine.
Do you have any recourse? Home warrantee? Who did the work two years ago? Were they licensed? How about the work six years ago? Any way to find out?
Frankly--and you may hate to hear this--a licensed professional remodelling contractor who is reputable and trustworthy may be the way to go. There are already 3 or 4 trades involved: tile, plaster, paint...and maybe plumbing. I've heard of the website "Angie's List", but never used it. Or, ask people you know.
The thing about working in a trade is that while most of what needs to be done is obvious, there are often little details--tricks of the trade, if you will--that make the difference between quality finish and ongoing problems. Here's and example: at a job I just finished, I accidently busted a water line while resetting a concrete box. Whoops. The superintendent, my boss, just laughed. First we spent two days trying to get it right. Finally the plumber showed up. The problem was that we had been using the wrong color (type) of PVC cement for the weather/moisture conditions. None of us knew that. Plus, by having the license do it, any future liability was on him.
If you're sure it's the grout, however, have at it!
And, yes, you use the clear silicone caulk to seal the corners and seams, since you won't be painting over it. Not all silicone caulking can be painted over--white silicone caulk often can be.
Oh, about the glass--it's tempered for safety (required by code). It is custom-made for each job. First they measure it, then they go back to the shop (or order it from the factory), as it needs to be cut and tempered to fit.
HTH
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