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Honu
Big Wall climber
Boulder
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 9, 2018 - 08:41am PT
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i was wondering if anyone could elaborate on piton Stacking techniques, Im relatively new to wall climbing but I've gotten up clean walls like moonlight buttress and lurking fear, I did zodiac in a push with one hammered beak placement. So I am fairly comfortable C3 techniques,But then I climbed tribal rite which required quite a lot of hammered pins, mostly straight forward beaks but on a few pitches I ended up whacking in some angles and arrows, especially on the second to last pitch of WOEML, on that pitch I took the only whip of the climb when a sawed off leveraged out of the placement. I'm thinking fall could have been avoided by stacking. My main question is when and what do you guys do when you pull out the Z-tons or any other stacking techniques with other pins besides the conventional angle and a z.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Haven't nailed a pin in years. You seen to be describing a flared type placement with geometry that just doesn't fit any conventional pin, cam, nut, beak, or head. A 'nothing good' situation.
I have a related question - why not epoxy in a wire cable, much like how you patch a bolt hole? Prevents further rock destruction, creates a permanent piece. Lower down to the belay, smoke a bowl, come back up when it's dry. No further rock destruction. Eventually the route gets freed, or the cable breaks and someone taps a beak in.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Sorry to say, but if you hammered a beak on Zodiac, you're def not comfortable with C3 techniques. Plenty of people have climbed that thing clean without making C3 placements or nailing. I climbed Zodiac a few years back and my partner and I did not even handplace a beak let alone nail one and nothing we did could be considered C3 (except for my partner camhooking the entire nipple pitch - but even that could have been done without camhooking the entire thing)
And doubly sorry to say, Tribal Rite does not require "quite a lot" of hammered pins. I did not find a single use for the Ztons I brought with me and I don't recall ever using a sawed off as well since there were other placements that sufficed.
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Honu
Big Wall climber
Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2018 - 09:26am PT
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I understand that pin stacks can be a sort of improv kind of thing, you just tie off what works sometimes. But there has got to be some stragies that work better than others for more secure tie offs. Or even just the case of the angle I poped, how do you stack with a z ton? Do you hammer in the z below the angle after or do you place the z first. there have got to be stacking techniques that offer more security in otherwise relatively straight forward angle or arrow placements.
Mr T, as interesting Wall theory your expoxy head question might be, could we please stick to responses regarding piton placement and stacking technique. I put this thread out there because it is a very real situation I faced and I plan on being In similar situations on harder aid walls this year and I would appreciate any insights I can learn from and improve my nailing game from.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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I fiddled with stacking pins when I was a noob wall climber back in the 70's. Then I climbed with Daryl Hatten. He was not only good but fast. I fiddled, he just got it done. Just filling in spaces.
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Honu
Big Wall climber
Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2018 - 09:58am PT
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J-tree, im not going to endulge your trolling and argue about clean climbing ethics or the legitimacys of my past ascents. i will agree most of the nailing on tribal rite was straight forward beaks.other than beaks the only other pins we placed where just 2 sawed offs and one lost arrow until the wall of early morning light, second to last pitch. Even on that pitch I did find other cleaner placements in much of the boxed out pin scars but there where a couple placements that I used sawed offs for. I created this thread not to argue about style of ascent but to learn from other people's experience in the nuanced craft of pegging and stacking even if there is limited application for these techniques theses days. Because those are tricks I still want in my bag regardless
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Honu,
I think I have pulled more stacked pins than I have placed, which is only possible if you pull the same placement more than once. That is an exaggeration, but the stack I remember most is pulling the same placement of stacked angles three times on one of the pitches between Sous Le Toit and the Headwall on the Salathe. I am surprised that stacking is necessary given the array of different gear available today, but I don't doubt you.
I would say that there are two elements to stacking pins. The first is finding the right combination of pins or pins and nuts and the way they fit together in the placement, and the second is how you tie them off to load them. It works best to sort out the second part before you setup the stack.
Two back-to-back knife blades tied-off with a sling is straight forward. Two nested angles is probably in the same category.
Crossed angles are tricky since there are point-to-point contacts that are not very secure. (I just referred to Royal's Advanced Rockcraft, and he states that crossing the open sides towards each other with the ribs against the rock is most secure.) With crossed angle stacks, I draped a sling around the stack back-to-front, either across the pins or against the edge on only one pin to get the load over the middle of the stack. In all cases, you cannot bottom out the pin you are pounding.
You also have to loop a sling or very loose biners through the eyes of the pins so they stay on the rope when they pull or to allow cleaning.
I found that moving up the aiders was the riskiest part, since any sort of change in the force vectors could cause the stack to fail.
I think that you can practice stacking on cracks in boulders, without a lot of pounding to draw attention to yourself, to get the hang of how to visualize how the force surfaces of a stack interact and how weight the stack is transmitted through the stack. It is engineering.
I call on Haan, Donini, Braun, Lauria, Worrall, and others, I am sure, to respond. I was almost exclusively a free climber and my experience on aid was limited.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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I think it is a fair question, Honu. Ignore the trolls. I can think of a half dozen fine gents that post here that have real experience stacking pins that would gladly reply. Give it time, they don't hang out here all the time waiting for the next snide remark.
Lauria?
BooDawg?
Live is a Bivy?
I can think of a few more.
edit-- what Roger says.^^^^^
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Turtle,
1. Most stacked placements I used to be comfortable trying to test have been replaced by Totems and bi-camming.
2. Any pics of placements?
3. Use keeper slings, so that when the mess of a stacked blades blows, it doesn't go to the ground.
4. Heads vs. stacks. Usual heading knowledge (out of scope of thread), applies once the decision to use a head is decided.
5. How many beers to consume prior to doing multiple stacks in a row?
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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It never occurred to me that the art of stacking pins would be studied or even discussed in a public forum. I don’t think any of us “old” guys even gave it much thought (Robbins in his Advanced Rockcraft gave it a page, but that was 1972, I’d already done most of my big walls by then). When one pin didn’t sufficiently fill the crack, fill the remaining space with whatever fit – and of course, tie it off with “hero loops” to reduce leverage. So much for the thought I put into it.
I must admit that attaching a safety sling through the eyes is something I never did. Not that it didn’t occur to me, but I was always in too much of a hurry. As a result, I lost close to 10 pitons on the 3rd pitch of the NA.
Honu, I guess you already know all you need to know. “I understand that pin stacks can be a sort of improv kind of thing, you just tie off what works sometimes. But there has got to be some strategies that work better than others for more secure tie offs.” If you want to get into strategies, I obviously don’t have any beyond the “improv” thing. I don’t even know what a Z-ton is (like an old Leeper?).
Although I appreciate that Wayno and Roger suggest that we old farts have some secrets to be revealed, you’ll have to hope BooDawg or Life is a Bivouac can add more to the discussion.
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Honu
Big Wall climber
Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2018 - 11:29am PT
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Roger, I really appreciate your response. That is just the sort of contribution to this thread that I'm looking to learn from. Especially with regards to how you load various stacks. My knowledge of stacks is limited, that is why I posted this thread but it seems to me there are a couple different verities of stacks with different applications. It seems like there are the kind of stacks like the back to back KBs that you stack together multiple pins in a single scar and then tie off the stack at base For proper load distribution like you would for a any half drivin pin. And then it seems to me there is another kind of stack that creates like a platform for greater security for a single pin. Such as placeing a z ton below an angle to create shelf sort of situation. Am I correct in my useage of a Z ton? In that case would I just clip the eye of the angle or tie it just the angle off and leave the z supporting the primary pin?
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Honu, Though I enjoy a clever misdirection as much as the next guy, nothing in my post was about clean climbing ethics or the legitimacy of your past ascents. (I'm assuming you have your own issues with this and thus projected)
I would say that if you reread my post you'll see that what I'm talking about is your perceived abilities that you stated in your own initial post. I won't say that though because I suspect you knew that, hence the misdirection. (I suspect because you seem relatively intelligent, if not overly stoked. I may be incorrect in assuming that and if I am I do apologize.)
finally, despite your relative perceived intelligence, you seem to mistake what the word trolling means. I think the phrase you meant to use when referring to my post was "being an as#@&%e" which I don't deny.
The actual answer to your question (which I suspect you won't take due to the tone of your posts in this thread thus far) if literally, "you'll need to figure it out as you go because the only hard and fast rule is use what works when it works." Yes, Deucey gave you a good starting point by referring to paying attention to the shape of the pins themselves as well as using hero loops to catch everything if it fails but I suspect you probably figured that out already.
It's bigwall; everytime you "figure out" something, the next wall is going to teach you that there's always an exception and nothing is a rule every time.
Have fun out there.
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Honu
Big Wall climber
Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2018 - 11:41am PT
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Don, yes the z ton I'm mentioning is an old leeper. Also Others have mentioned that most places you would need to stack have been replaced by modern gear like cams. I'm considering the few times modern gear like cams won't cut it and the use of a sawed off is required. Because I'm a young climber, clean gear is all I used to know. So even the basics of nailing anything other than a beak has nuances besides the basics of how to drive them properly, that I haven't needed to know generally and I may find my self again in a spot like I was in on that second to last pitch of WOEML wishing I had a better grasp on how to fortify pin strength by staking.
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WBraun
climber
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Pin stacking techniques?
You are gonna learn?
LOL !!!!
These modern climbing zombies will all attack you like a pack of frenzied hyenas.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Your examples are correct. If you have an angle which almost fills the space and need just a little more, the thickness of the z-ton will do it securely. The benefit of the z-ton is that it has two points of contact against the rock. If your space and pin selection is such that you need two angles, face-to-face, then the z-ton won't help unless you need it in a three pin stack. My assumption is that stacks are going to be dicey, in which case the tie-off needs to be close to or on top of the contact points that are holding the stack together. I sort of remember stacking a 3 inch bong and 2 inch angle in rotten rock--the one that popped three times. Unlike Don, I always tied my pins off with a keeper. If I recall, Don owned a Mountaineering Store, (West Ridge, Don?) and may have had enough pins to lose 10 and still get up.
Don's general assessment is correct: you find something that works and then figure out how to tie them off. The part that lends itself to practice is figuring out how to use the third hand which is needed to hold it all together as you pound. The best advice in this regard is to use your dominate hand for the hammering and the other two to hold the pins.
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Honu
Big Wall climber
Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2018 - 12:00pm PT
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J tree, I deflected your response because it wasn't related to what this thread is about. I provided my brief list of credentials as a way a providing context that Im a young climber who do to the general trend of the sport has more experience with clean aid than with a hammer. Your comments about the climbing on zodiac and tribal rite are just not relevant to the discussion I want to insight on this thread. I hope for comments regarding mechanics of the types of stacks and how to tie them off. A nuanced field of aid climbing that, like any placement has to be figured out in the moment due to the particular nature of
Each placement, but the general themes of which could be discussed here to the benefit of all.
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Honu
Big Wall climber
Boulder
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2018 - 12:55pm PT
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http://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_zoom.php?dpid=OjU4NjkiICQmLQ,,
So can anyone explain this stack? It's from the recent fisher towers trip report a line in the sand
It kind of looks like a frost draw or a rivet hanger is being used as a tie off on the arrow
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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I can't say it more clearly - whatever works!
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Slym
climber
Merced, CA
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5. How many beers to consume prior to doing multiple stacks in a row?
After some research, it's subjective, but formula-based:
N = (P/abv)/((S+1)+T)
Where:
"N" = number of beers
"P" = pucker factor on a 1-3 scale, with 3 being most puckered
"abv" = the alcohol by volume of the subject beer
"S" = number of stacked placements in a row, including the one at hand
"T" = total pins in the stacked placements
Note that this is beers-per-placement.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Yes, whatever works.
Sometimes whatever works well without fiddling around for two hours trying to get that clean placement.
The first time I did Half Dome was the first time I bivied and the first time I did aid. No hammer or cams, just hexes and stoppers was the order of the day. I remember fiddling with one placement that was above the zig-zags for a couple of hours. A few years later I did the route again with Daryl. He brought a hammer. Our rack was still hexes and stoppers, but with a couple of first gen. Friends. Daryl used the hammer to clean pins that he traded for beers and smokes. Daryl made quick work of that placement that took me hours to figure out. It was a neat little stack job that took him less than two minutes to complete. A fat copperhead would have done it but I wasn't into that yet and the ballnut wasn't invented yet. Ethical considerations weren't much of a factor in our decision making process at that point either.
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