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Bargainhunter
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 27, 2017 - 02:06pm PT
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Posted from Yosemite NPS:
Are you in Yosemite this week?
Yosemite National Park invites the public to participate in a walk-through of the planned Camp 4 expansion. The walk-through will outline the planned facilities, locations, and design concepts for the new space.
Join Yosemite's Project Manager at the Camp 4 kiosk this Thursday, Sept. 28th at 3:30pm for an on-site tour. Ask questions and learn opportunities to be involved moving forward.
Camp 4 is listed on the National Register of Historic Places for its nationally significant role in the development of rock climbing.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 27, 2017 - 02:26pm PT
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The key is to retain its primary use by climbers. If too many amenities are added, the risk is it becomes an overflow site for people who would otherwise want to stay in the more territorial bounded campsites in the valley. So keeping it communal with group sites seems key. as well as the walk-in booking system. Perhaps enlarge some sites so up to 8 could stay in each site. More movable picnic tables seems like it would useful, too. Get rid of those horrible concrete barriers and perhaps put in some nice benches to mark the borders when border delineation is necessary. Some landscape architecture, in other words.
A big improvement would be a place, perhaps off toward the boulders on the right as you walk into camp, where people could wait in line all night without being in the lights right next to the road, as waiting in line all night is often the only way to get a site in the busy times. Or perhaps a full time staffer to pass out numbers for the following day, with some numbers being assured a site, then a limited number of "wait list" numbers in case of no-shows (they do this in the morning sometimes, but then it still requires hours of waiting in line). Sometimes there are hundred people waiting, it seems, when it is clear that there will be no chance for the last 50 (who have to wait anyway, to be sure). There has got to be a better system for walk-in that doesn't require burning a day or even two of a climber's trip.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 28, 2017 - 12:50am PT
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Good words, Kevin. Definitely room for a few more sites to the north without interfering with the bouldering circuit, but I think the western boundary is now off limits as it is a traditional area.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 28, 2017 - 02:06pm PT
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Good point.
It sucks how other people are always posting to say that it sucks how other people are always posting to say that it sucks.
But in the big picture, women suck more for it than men like me do, and other people suck more for it than I do. That's just the way I roll.
For me, I don't care. I'm not that attached to maintaining its historical setup, and I'm not so attached to my identity as a climber and my memories of camp 4 as a climber that I think it should be the way it used to be. But if that's the way you roll, cool.
Do what's best for humans now. Climber humans, hiker humans, tourist humans, whoever those humans might be. Heck, even women humans.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 28, 2017 - 02:38pm PT
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Kevin, you walked into that one...so Camp 4.
But you are correct in asssesssing the weirdness of the juxtaposition of the two threads on our front page.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 28, 2017 - 05:35pm PT
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My bad.
Kudos to you on the righteousness of sharing your thoughts about camp 4 modifications to a thread that's announcing a meeting where you can go to share your thoughts about camp 4 modifications. And for pointing out how other people suck for pointing out how other people suck. Aren't you great?
It's crazy of those other humans that they didn't use their time as wisely as you did. Maybe some of them even sucked so badly that they actually went to the meeting and shared their thoughts with Yosemite NPS.
But you be you.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 28, 2017 - 05:43pm PT
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Maybe some of them even went to the meeting.
What's wrong with you?
The meeting is tonight and maybe YOU should go instead of constantly mumbling on the internet ...
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 28, 2017 - 05:47pm PT
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My bad. If he's your buddy he's my buddy too. MAGA!
The meeting that's announced as being at 3:30 today in this thread (that we're posting to at 5:50) is tonight?
Oh you know how those stoopid humans are. They get all these crazy ideas that a meeting announced as 3:30 is at 3:30, and that other people suck for doing the same things that they do.
But what're ya gonna do? Post about it to the internet, or something? Stoopid humans. They suck.
I do appreciate that all you awesome humans are just awesome perceivers of the truth.
But are we, really?
From where I sit, it doesn't seem like we're quite as awesome as we tell ourselves we are, or that other people are quite as stoopid as we tell ourselves they are.
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
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Sep 28, 2017 - 10:37pm PT
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Hell, I feel bad for bumping the thread. I personally don't want to see it change. Just thought there was interesting conversations in there. I love that place, as much as an ectended period of time in there can where on you.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 29, 2017 - 05:37pm PT
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Whats wrong with you?
It's a good question. It's a question I ask myself. Sure, I'd appreciate your help with it.
From your deep first hand experience of being a human, and understanding of the human condition, what's wrong with me?
How are your kids, that you love more than yourself, doing? How are your transracially adopted kids doing? How are your mentally ill kids doing? How are you doing?
Please do share with me, from your deep first hand experience of other people being stoopid humans, what's wrong with me.
I like what I see of you. You be you. You be a stoooid human, the way that you're a stoopid human. I don't have a problem with that.
But maybe there are other ways of being a stoopid human than just the ones you approve of.
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c wilmot
climber
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Sep 29, 2017 - 05:47pm PT
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As to those butt ugly cement logs - wouldn't small granite boulders be more aesthetic and appropriate?
Yes.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Sep 29, 2017 - 06:34pm PT
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Good input by Kevin and John. Hope it doesn't get "modernized" as it is a historical place. Noted how much work already being done in the parking area and I hope the grand plan isn't already in work with "input" only a part of the formal plan. Werner, perhaps you might have a bit more insight? Haven't stayed in years, but last time was there with The Bird and he got booted from the SAR site when we went to check it out, that was a bummer. Camp 4 was always a great place to be, hope it returns to it's former feel.
Peace
Rbord, is boring
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 30, 2017 - 03:36pm PT
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Double the number of campsites expanding down Valley and add a second bathroom building with better utility sinks.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 30, 2017 - 03:49pm PT
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Or take out the lodge and put it there😎😎
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 30, 2017 - 03:52pm PT
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Put the kiosk on top of a V1 boulder so only climbers can register for a site.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I don’t know if the dirt is cleaner but I was there early enough to have actually have seen grass where there is now only dirt.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I was at the meeting at the behest of Eric Bissel (the current climbing ranger) and I have to say I'm very confused at the outcome.
The operating assumptions were reported to have come from the Merced River Plan, which you can find here:
http://www.nps.gov/yose/getinvolved/upload/MRP_ROD_package_Full_web.pdf
and the Camp 4 relevant items:
Yosemite Lodge and Camp 4 Campgrounds – Added infrastructure in the vicinity of the Camp 4 Historic Site and within the Yosemite Valley Historic District will result in long-term, minor, adverse impacts. Removal of employee housing, both non-contributing and contributing, would result in long-term, negligible, adverse impacts. Retaining the current number of lodging units will have no impact, while construction of a new parking area and employee housing within the Yosemite Valley Historic District will result in long-term, minor to moderate, adverse impacts.
not clear what this means except to try to estimate the impacts of various actions.
in TABLE 3: CATEGORY 3 ACTIONS – IDENTIFICATION, EVALUATION AND/OR ASSESSMENT OF EFFECT TO BE DETERMINED
item 13:

Historic Property:
Yosemite Valley archeological site (CA-MRP-0059); Camp 4 Historic Site; Identified but not yet evaluated historic properties with religious and cultural
significance to American Indians.
Action code/Project Name/Project Description:
ONA-2-004/Expand the Camp 4 Camp- ground Eastward by adding 35 new walk-in campsites/Camp 4 expanded eastward to provide 35 additional walk-in sites. Retain 35 walk-in campsites at Camp 4.
Assessment of Direct, Indirect, and Cumulative Adverse Effects:
ssessment of effect to be determined for archeological district that may result from construction of new campsites within vicinity of archeological site (CA-MRP-0059). The NPS and American Indian tribes and groups will continue to collaborate on resources management and historic preservation activities guided by existing cooperative agreements to ensure that adverse effects to historic properties with traditional religious and cultural
significance can be avoided.
The American Indian tribes were not notified about the meeting.
The plan that was shown had 25 new sites in Camp 4, with a "comfort station."
I can't seem to find the actual NPS project documentation on line, but the landscape architect who designed this plan can be found here:
http://www.johnnorthmoreroberts.com/portfolio-items/yosemite-lodge-camp-4/
and the plan view is the 5th image of the five thumbnail images.
What was surprising, and what was said to be slated for completion in November, was the parking lot, which was not a part of the Camp 4 expansion.
I couldn't find this project at the NPS Federal Lands Transportation Program website.
The YNP representative didn't know any of the details of the parking and referred to the National Highway Grant funds, and not a part of the MRP (Merced River Plan).
However, in the notation in the 4th alternative (there are 5 alternative plans) seems to roughly correspond to what we heard.
https://www.nps.gov/yose/learn/management/upload/mrp-deis-maps-alt4.pdf
this parking includes parking for 15 tour buses, and 20 RV sites.
I don't know which of the alternatives were adopted for the MRP, nor do I know where to find the project specifics for implementing that plan. But right now, it seems to make major changes to Camp 4.
Oh, and the comfort station includes showers...
I think YNP has been less than forthcoming on what the actual plans for this area are.

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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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And Dr Ed delves into the relevant data, mysterious as it is....
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Just leave it alone, nobody in their right mind would ever trust the NPS to do anything beside grow beacon. . .
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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the "final" Merced River Plan can be found here:
http://www.nps.gov/yose/getinvolved/mrp_finalplan.htm
the alternative that was chosen was Alternative 5 "Enhanced Visitor Experiences and Essential Riverbank Restoration," the map is found here:
http://www.nps.gov/yose/learn/management/upload/mrp-deis-maps-alt5.pdf
as well as the description of the alternative.
The parking around the Lodge is described:
West of Yosemite Lodge Parking Area
Under the Selected Action, the NPS would redevelop an area west of Yosemite Lodge that was previously a site for employee dormitories until the structures were demolished due to flood damage. Currently, the site accommodates tour bus parking. Under the Selected Action, the NPS will redevelop the parking area to provide parking spaces for 300 day-use visitors and 22 buses (Figure 3). Additional pedestrian pathways and utility corridors would connect the parking area to trails, destinations, and other visitor services.
Construction activities at the West of Yosemite Lodge Parking Area would impact approximately 1.13 acres of riverine intermittent wetlands that carry flows during and after storm events. These intermittent wetlands are likely to sustain adverse impacts during redevelopment of the parking area.
Wetland Compensation:
In accordance with the Wetland Statement of Findings for the 2014 Merced Wild and Scenic River Comprehensive Management Plan construct new wetland habitat for the following projects:
Riverine Intermittent Wetland. Wetland loss (1.51 total acres) will result from redevelopment of West of Yosemite Lodge Parking (1.13 acres) and redesign of the Yosemite Village Day-use Parking Area (0.38 acre). Wetland restoration compensation will total 1.51 acres. Compensation for 1.51 acres of riverine intermittent wetland impacts will take place near the proposed Upper and Lower River Campground area.
West of Yosemite Lodge Parking Area
Riverine intermittent (1.13 acres impacted) – These wetlands carry flows from Yosemite Valley cliffs toward the Merced River during and after storm events, when sheet flows channelize into culverts under Northside Drive. They may carry runoff into the delineation area and lose their defined channel in the delineation area, causing the runoff to spread as sheet flow and percolate into soils. Some drainages are interrupted by culverts placed under abandoned roadbeds or by demolition materials that fill portions of the channel. These drainages often have a non-soil substrate that is saturated and/or covered by shallow water at some time during the growing season. Very little wetland vegetation is found in these areas because of the intermittent nature of the flows within the drainage channels. These riverine intermittent wetlands are altered by past demolition activity and roadside culvert cleaning, and are low-functioning. Demolition debris such as ground asphalt spills into the wetlands in several areas.
Riverine Habitats
Biotic Functions. Intermittent channels provide a seasonal water source for wildlife and invertebrates. Because the unconsolidated shore habitats lack vegetation and usually lack water, they may not provide significant habitat or food sources for wildlife.
Hydrologic Functions. Intermittent channels are periodic water sources and therefore provide less function; however, they nevertheless contribute streamflow maintenance, water supply, erosion control, sediment retention, water purification, and detrital export to downstream systems.
Cultural Values. Because Native Americans are known to have focused some activities along streams, riverine habitats may provide archaeological value. Visitors to the park enjoy the Merced River and engage in activities such as swimming, boating, fishing, and photography. The seasonal water flow and seasonal lack of vegetation in the intermittent channels limit the aesthetic value of these habitats.
Research/Scientific Values. The riverine habitats may provide opportunities for research in groundwater-vegetation relationships and in the effectiveness of riparian habitat restoration techniques.
Economic Values. For the reasons listed above, the riverine habitats could provide significant economic value for flood protection, biological resources (in particular fisheries), and tourism.
ONA-2-004, "Expand the Camp 4 Camp- ground Eastward by adding 35 new walk-in campsites"
Camp 4 expanded eastward to provide 35 additional walk-in sites. Retain 35 walk-in campsites at Camp 4.
Assessment of effect to be determined for archeological district that may result from construction of new campsites within vicinity of archeological site (CA-MRP- 0059). The NPS and American Indian tribes and groups will continue to collaborate on resources management and historic preservation activities guided by existing cooperative agreements to ensure that adverse effects to istoric properties with traditional religious and cultural significance can be avoided.
TRAN-2-005, "Yosemite Lodge: pedestrian / vehicle conflicts on Northside Drive"
A tiered NEPA / NHPA compliance effort (EA/Section 106 Determination) will evaluate a range of alternatives to address the pedestrian / vehicle conflicts on Northside Drive between the Yosemite Lodge Area and the Lower Yosemite Fall Area. The final preferred alternative will include design guidelines to ensure that archeological impacts are avoided or minimized; the alignment of the crossing keeps pedestrians on the pathways and reduces the temptation to cross the road on- grade; the safety of pedestrians is maximized; and visual impacts are minimized.
Identification, evaluation and assessment of effects to be determined for district and Yosemite Lodge that may result from addressing the pedestrian / vehicle conflicts within the vicinity of archeological resources (CA-MRP-0240/303/H). The NPS and American Indian tribes and groups will continue to collaborate on resources management and historic preservation activities guided adverse effects to historic properties with traditional religious and cultural significance can be avoided.
TRAN-2-008, "West of Yosemite Lodge: Yosemite Lodge Parking Area"
Yosemite Lodge Day-use Parking Area re-developed to provide additional 300 day-use parking spaces. This parking area will also accommodate 22 tour buses.
Identification, evaluation, and assessment of effects to be determined for historic district and Yosemite Lodge that may result from redevelopment and ground disturbance within and in vicinity of archeological sites (CA-MRP-0305H and CA-MRP- 0748/765/H). The NPS and American Indian tribes and groups will continue to collaborate on resources management and historic preservation activities guided by existing cooperative agreements to ensure that adverse effects to historic properties with traditional religious and cultural significance can be avoided.
TRAN-2-016, TRAN-2-017, "Camp 4 Campground: Expanded parking and shuttle bus stop"
Establish a new 41-space parking lot for Camp 4 campground on Northside Drive. Construct a shuttle bus stop near Camp 4.
The NPS and American Indian tribes and groups will continue to collaborate on resources management and historic preservation activities guided by existing cooperative agreements to ensure that adverse effects to historic properties with traditional religious and cultural significance can be avoided.
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