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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 1, 2006 - 04:20pm PT
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Upfront let me say I have no stake in this as I'm not a sport climber and have never put up an FA with a protection bolt on it. But the discussion in the 'Ground Up' thread has repeatedly raised the spectre of "ego-driven" runouts on rap bolted sport routes used as the pretext for lableling all such routes as 'botched' FAs. This opens a host of legitimate issues for discussion relative to perceived roles, obligations, responsibilities, and standards which burden (or not) a person establishing a sport route.
What if the person putting up a rap-bolted sport route is one of the well-rounded climbers who does it all that everyone loves to gush about? You know - bouldering, sport, trad, alpine, ice - all of it. But what then if due to their experiences in highball bouldering, hard trad, difficult alpine, and runout ice they just end up in a state where managing risk is a central to their experience and they like a little spice when they climb regardless of what kind of climbing they're doing. What does a person so demonically afflicted do when they decide to establish a sport route? I mean they want the route to reflect a taste of their experience and what they want out of a climb so build a little spice into the route - i.e. they deliberately establish serious or deadly runouts by design. What then are we to make of such a route? Botched? An affront to the 'community'? Abusive development? Is it 'ego-driven' or are they simply playing a different game than most of their fellow sport climbers?
Folks in skateboarding world are now building [url="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/01/sports/othersports/01ramp.html?ei=5090&en=f422ed5447b037eb&ex=1320037200&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all" target="new"]'Mega Ramps'[/url] where death and disfigurement are a potential outcome of a ride. Does that make it a 'botched' ramp? Well, why should we be so quick to label every runout sport route as a 'botched', 'ego-driven' abomination and afront to the 'community'? Is pristine rock now so rare a commodity that we can't afford to accomodate such an exercise in personal expression? If the answer is yes, then I think you are unavoidably acknowledging a whole bunch of thorny issues best described as a commodity supply and demand problem within a now burgeoning commercial consumer products industry. I can't be the only inquiring mind that wants to know why there shouldn't be R and X-rated sport climbs. Or by definition is establishing a sport route supposed to be an exercise in the lowest-common-denominator risk management. Personally, I think saying there shouldn't be such routes smacks of an an entirely peculiar mix of entitlement and socialism, but this is clearly a prominent development issue in the world of community-based sport climbing.
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murcy
climber
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Entitlement and socialism. I'd add beastiality and satanism. Racism as well.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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I'm not really sure what you said, but since this is the internet, I'll spray:
Problem with rap bolted runouts is they are not a level playing field. The rapper has knowledge of the route either by TRing it first, or seeing/touching the holds while rapping in the bolts. They guy who goes next is at a disadvantage in that he does not know what is up there and the results of a mistake are pricey. Following in others footsteps is a big part of doing climbs..... since there are no footsteps to follow in the raprunoutsport deal, it is poor style. That is why rap bolted runouts are ghey and should be chopped or a fluff boy should go in there and make them safe. Yep I said it... ADD BOLTS.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2006 - 04:36pm PT
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Ok, so it's back to the ownership issue. So you're claiming public 'ownership' by definition confers an obligation and demand for routes to be configured with lowest-common-denominator risk-management profile. Interest perspective...
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Rap bolting routes with deliberate scary runouts is just stupid. Ground-up it or toprope it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2006 - 04:45pm PT
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Russ, if I hear you correctly I believe you're saying no one should have to bail off a sport route because, on arriving at some arbitrary bolt, they either can't see the next one or see it at some considerable distance. On the previewing issue, what would prevent someone that wants to climb it from simply TRing or rapping and previewing it just like the person that established it? Is that such a problem. And, again (playing devil's advocate myself), are you saying we can't afford such routes? Couldn't all the guides and beta simply say this is "one of those" routes? Sounds like style nazis to me.
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goatboy smellz
climber
boulder county
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Wait a sec', I'm not done reading the first thread and already you guys have come out with a sequel.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2006 - 04:49pm PT
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Weschrist,
Au contraire, if there is another definition for the intent behind your phrase of "[retrobolt] X to R or PG" than "lowest-common-denominator" than I can't imagine what it might be.
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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And wes, when the public decides that your outlook is skewed also, how are you going to feel when they put a bolt every 4 feet? There never is going to be a 'public' decision on these things. If there is then the government has gotten involved and your and my parents are gonna be voting on this sh#t so that their little grandkids can't get hurt while climbing. And "CAN'T" get hurt would be the ultimate resolution and you know it. Your argument is worthless because it is based on a reality that isn't ever gonna be real.
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Melvin Mills
Trad climber
Albuquerque NM
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Hypothetically, if the FA person climbing GU gets in a f*#ked up spot, wishes to God he had put in a bolt at that last stance 10' down, but is now looking at a 60'er, pushes through, swears he will never have sex with farm animals again as long as he comes out of this alive, finishes the route, and never returns...
Wes, the person you are talking about in the above situation just put up a botched route if they did feel another bolt should go in but they were just to lazy to come back and do it. At the least they should tell the rest of the people who would go repeat the route that it needs another bolt in a certain spot and repeat ascensionists should feel free to add one. Then there is some redemption for that poor (lazy) schmuck.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Not real? Retrobolting happens from time to time.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2006 - 04:57pm PT
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Greg, so every pitch of an untopropeable 22 pitch alpine sport route should be completely safe as well? That sounds a bit intolerant and otherwise at least a minor tryanny of community property.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2006 - 05:00pm PT
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So several of you are telling me that no one should ever face the prospect of arriving at a bolt and finding the next one out or reach of their comfort zone? Or is it someone else's comfort zone? Or is there an simply an informal community-defined comfort zone? Exactly how many feet is that or is it more of a know-it-when-I-see-it sort of deal? Is the deal really that no one can or should have to bail off a sport route (or no one should ever be over their head on one)?
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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so you're using a unique bolted alpine climb and calling it intolerant?
more of the same from healy...
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Russ, if I hear you correctly I believe you're saying no one should have to bail off a sport route because on arriving at some arbitrary bolt they either can't see the next one or see it at some considerable distance.
True, with all the standard exceptions that I'm sure we could both dig up.... guy only has one eye, lasik went bad, too scared at any height above a bolt. Sport climbing by definition is all about the moves and not the consequences. If there are consequences, then it is not really sport in my book.
On the previewing issue, what would prevent someone that wants to climb it from simply TRing or rapping and previewing it just like the person that established it?
Nothing. But, for the large majority of routes, people just walk up to the base and climb them. The hidden history is rarely available to the man in the field walking around with his rack and rope looking at a name and grade in the guidebook. If some dude want's to headpoint the pile, more power to them.
Is that such a problem.
Not if you have the info about how the route was done. If I looked in a guidebook and saw that a route was put up on rap, has 5.10 moves 90ft out, and is rated 5.10a, then I would have a decision to make. But if I am a wobbly 5.10- minus leader with bad eyesite and see a string of bolts on what looks like a sport climb in my target lead area, there will be trouble when I hit that runout. I think that is an unreasonable demand to put on a punter.
And, again (playing devil's advocate myself), are you saying we can't afford such routes? Couldn't all the guides and beta simply say this is "one of those" routes? Sounds like style nazis to me.
We can't afford them because now a days there are too many climbers and not enough rock. The amount of routes that are put in ground up with the requsite fear factor built in to keep the masses off is miniscule compared to the potential of top down Bosch clowns that could eat up all the moderate rock in short order. I agree there should be routes for all abilities, and the middle grades is where most of these are found. A good climber, doing ground up stuff, has little interest in making a 5.8 horror show. But a top down bolting team could make short work of a moderate grade crag and create nothing that anyone would want to do, or could do safely. Any yes, style nazis are alive and well.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2006 - 05:07pm PT
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And in a segue to the bouldering world, at what height should a higbhall boulder problem get a bolt and be considered a route rather than a problem? Should boulderers be able to define that distinction and keep bolts off their problems?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2006 - 05:08pm PT
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Caught, you're assuming it will remain unique - that's a bold assertion given the trends in climbing today...
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Greg Barnes
climber
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You're really stretching healyje.
I said "Rap bolting routes with deliberate scary runouts is just stupid."
If a rap-bolted 22 pitch sport route (yikes! they have those? Don't they have anything better to do with their time?) has a 4th class pitch with no bolts, or big runouts on 5.8 when the route is 5.11, then it's not a "deliberate scary runout" - I used "scary" to mean runout at hard for the grade or crux climbing or with a bad fall, etc.
I don't see much point in this whole line of discussion - rap bolted routes are generally not an issue.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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I'm not saying it will remain unique, but given that it took over two years to put it up, and there hasn't been one since, I just don't see a mass proliferation of them being a problem.
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Melvin Mills
Trad climber
Albuquerque NM
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Has anybody on this thread climbed at Mill Creek where runout bolted sport routes are the norm? Evidently, some talented climbers developed the routes first in a style they liked and many other subsequent climbers who go there lose their cookies because the routes can be runout (particularly at the top where a ground fall is less possible). With some exceptions for poorly placed bolts (which can occur on closely bolted routes), I am okay with having to run it out on these climbs. That said, I also have to be okay with backing off some climbs (and have several times at the area).
Are these routes bad or good or just a local style of putting up routes?
PS, Healyje, based on your first post you really have misunderstood what I would define as a botched route.
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