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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 28, 2006 - 03:21am PT
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I didn't know which thread to post these in, so I made a new thread...
A lot of talk about the bolting in the 70's, thought I'd share some stuff recovered in the wayback machine (actually this summer's episode of "This Old Route", hopefully to be completed in the spring).
Here are two bolts that we removed and replaced, beside two modern bolts:
The rusty bolts with Dolt hangers are 1/4" x 1" steel split-shaft. These were "state-of-the-art" in 1971 when they were put in. The placements were excellent, and the placer was Roger Breedlove.
The top shinny bolt is a 5-piece Powers plated steel 3/8" x 2.25" with a Petzl SS hanger (ASCA), and the bottom a Powers SS anchor, also 3/8" x 2.25" with a Metolius SS hanger (the type which replaced the old bolts).
A closeup of the hangers:
you can see the "Dolt" symbol stamped on the hanger in the top photo if you look carefully.
From the back:
These old bolts were in great condition and probably would be near full strength for the bolt type. Of course, you never know...
I'm sending these back to the owner... but I might use a couple to pull test just to see how good they still are.
These old bolts would have been considered excellent protection in the '70s, especially when placed so well.
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jack herer
climber
veneta, or
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Nov 28, 2006 - 03:40am PT
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This old bolt was placed sometime in the 60's I think, one hit with the tuning fork under brought it up... but this is in smith rock tuff.
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Hangerlessbolt
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Nov 28, 2006 - 04:09am PT
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The bottom bolt looks like one my buddy Chris peeled off onto on With Malice and Forethought.
I remember he looked at it and said, "There's no way this will hold, but it might slow me down if I come off."
I didn't think he'd peel...and neither did he, but sure as sh#t..."POP"...and it held!
He quickly gained his composure and started back up the route.
I suggested, "It's a good thing it wasn't me hanging off that thing."
He agreed
Would have been better off with a paperclip and a thumbtac
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ec
climber
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Nov 28, 2006 - 06:33am PT
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Ed, you must have been 'inspired' by the cave bolts in the reverse climbing thread. When I get home I'll have to drag out some nasty ones if I can locate them...
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nov 28, 2006 - 08:25am PT
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Nice ruler, Ed.
By the way, how long does it take to drill a 3/8 X 2 1/4 inch hole? It is about 5 times as much material.
Roger
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 28, 2006 - 09:12am PT
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We think this was placed by Lynn Robison and Joe Hancock in the early '80s. It came off of a runout 5.9 slab climb called Prime Interest at Christmas Tree Pass.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Nov 28, 2006 - 10:00am PT
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Those old bolts were certainly "sportier" than the modern sport bolts. Like Hangerless said, you'd be "...better off with a thumbtack and paperclip." Replace all those old numbers, quick!
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Nov 28, 2006 - 10:05am PT
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I like it these days when climbers get on one of the sportier routes that have updated bolts and wimpper about the run outs. I just look at them and go you should have done it when it was protected with 1/4 bolts with spinner hangers.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2006 - 10:07am PT
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ec - yes, but the bolts we pulled were way better placed than that mank in the cave... I've been meaning to post the bolt pictures earlier, but something inspired me between the cave thread, the "balls to use nuts" thread and the "welcome KW" history fest.
I was actually pleased at how good those 1/4" bolts were.
Roger - glad you like the ruler! I have collected a lot of odd memorabilia over the years. I'm sending the sling that was attached to those bolts (belay bolts atop pitch 3) so you can get an idea of when someone last bailed from the route.
AND TO ALL THE REST OF YOU OUT THERE!
Support your favorite rebolting project... I support ASCA, I know there are others out there who do it as a service to the community. On this particular route I was pleased to be thanked by a couple of climbers passing by the base of the climb.
Those 1/4" bolts have served their time... it would be wonderful if we could replace them with better hardware. There are people in this world who feel so strongly about this that they spend large amounts of their time rebolting these fine old routes.
THANK YOU!!
I know we all want to get this right, so if you have a criticism about the rebolting, TRY TO VOICE IT IN A CONSTRUCTIVE MANNER. The main point is that the FA did not intend any later climbers to climb their routes on dangerously compromised hardware. The hardware they put in at the time was sound (for the most part). Age, weathering, environmental factors all contribute to the creation of mank.
If we want these routes to be available for future climbers, then we all have to figure out how to maintain the routes. It is a community effort.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2006 - 10:13am PT
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Per Greg Barnes' recommendation
we tap the old bolt out enough to get a pry bar underneath. There are many people who machine the "tuning fork" Lost Arrow piton for free (thank you, especially Paul!) so this can be done carefully.
That takes 5-10 minutes.
The old 1/4" x 1" bolt hole is redrilled using a 3/8" bit, taking 15 to 20 minutes, depending on the rock (the number above is Fairview Dome granite). You have to be patient redrilling as to not bind the bit up.
Actually another factor in drilling ground up on lead on a "flint hard" granite route these days is that it takes a lot longer to drill 3/8" x 2.25" then those old holes... at least when you do it by hand.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 28, 2006 - 10:38am PT
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We use an auto mechanics pickle fork. Some of the old 1/4"ers at the pass come out grudgingly, some you just tap lightly. We then redrill to 3/8". They've been doing a couple of routes per year out there. The Southern California Mountaineers Association, the organization everyone loves to hate, has been providing a lot of the hardware.
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Cuckawalla
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Nov 28, 2006 - 10:46am PT
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On soft rock, ie:) Navajo sandstone/ wingate, does the tuning fork leave bad scars after use? Also, can the tuning fork be used to remove Baby Angles?
Thanks,
Jesse
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Nov 28, 2006 - 10:46am PT
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Here is an unused Salathe bolt and hanger circa 1940's. They used to be considered good enough.
Ken
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goatboy smellz
climber
boulder county
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Nov 28, 2006 - 11:37am PT
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For a bunch of trad climbers you folks sure know alot about bolts. ()'-'()
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nov 28, 2006 - 11:45am PT
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Hey, bolts were trad first! Salathe, Robbins, Harding all before 1960 in Yosemite Valley.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Nov 28, 2006 - 11:56am PT
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Hey Roger,
Don't forget about George Anderson. This one is from 1877.
Ken
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nov 28, 2006 - 12:01pm PT
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Hey Ken, wasn't George a sport climber?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 28, 2006 - 12:04pm PT
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Cool Ken, David Brower bolts from the '30s are modern compared to that, and Harding bolts almost new!
Hey Ed - you can get a little more aggro on the thin pin/tuning fork combo, I get nearly all 1/4" out in 30 seconds-2 min, and Tuolumne bolts are almost always at the low end of that scale (freeze-thaw cycles).
Don't bother testing those Dolt hangers, give them all to Roger or save them!
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goatboy smellz
climber
boulder county
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Nov 28, 2006 - 12:05pm PT
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Right 'O Roger, notice the wink and smile.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Nov 28, 2006 - 12:05pm PT
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Roger,
Not on Mt. Starr King. He placed one bolt and had probably the first sticky free climbing shoes. He placed pine pitch on a pair of moccasins for that ascent. When he got to the summit he was disappointed to find a rock cairn that was built by Schuster and Bailey the year before in 1876.
Ken
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